Topic #9. Have you ever had to choose?
(Showing 26-40 of 40)

26. ethie' girl....
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:44 PM/EST

I didn't mean to digress, but that has always amazed me, and I wondered what others thought about it. I am attracted to beautiful, intelligent, and independent women and yes I am color-blind and proud of it. I just wish others could view relations the same. It would make the world a much better place to live:)

27. various subjects
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:54 PM/EST
robbie

Ethie's Girl, you are totally making sense. You should not feel pressured to speak in a certain way in order to fit in. But unfortunately these pressures are all too real.

Regarding your question about preferences. I think that we all have preferences. I won't say that I wouldn't date a blue guy 12 feet tall, but I may be more attracted to green guys who are 10 feet tall. And I think that it is obviously OK to have preferences. I guess the question arises, how were those preferences constructed? And do they feed into a need to address/ignore/embrace/overturn the existing power structure?

28. robbie
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:57 PM/EST
smoothtap

My comfort level is based on my up bringing. For me it's OK to say “whaz up” when I'm with people in my area that I was raised. I don't say it to every black person I meet just because they are black. I only use it because I was raised using it. It was ok then for me to communicate with people in my area and it's still ok now. It has nothing to do with selling out. Instead it is a cultural belonging for me when I'm around my people (people that I was raised with including my white freinds). Code-switching for me as a survival tool. It helps me to make a living and also enjoy the riches of my community. If your community is the same as your work environment and you find it's not needed then that's cool. That’s your choice and if you don’t code-switch around the children you teach that’s cool too. And maybe you could even teach them it’s ok to talk however you want. I must tell you thought I may talk different around people but I still treat them the same. It’s like you, when you talk to your family you use non-curse words to convey the same meaning as curse words.

29. To Robbie: Class vs. SES
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 5:27 PM/EST
jacqueline

I am generally impressed with the way that you use language, however I am troubled with or (to be more accurate) I don't completely understand the distinction that you are making between class and SES. What do you mean by "truly upper class?" and how is their "class" distinct from their socio-economic status? And when you say "lower class blacks" do you mean not well educated? or do you mean that they have a low social rank in our culture?

I don't mean to be unreasonable picky, I just want to understand what you really mean.

Peace out :-)

30. robbie
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 5:41 PM/EST
smoothtap

I glad we are discussing this subject. It is really good to here others views. I use slang and I still get people saying I talk white. But I also get white people telling me in the work force "you are an exception because you talk just like us". Which is just as bad because I am not and exception to the rule, just one of the many that exist. I never thought slang was only a black thing. If you watch MTV you can see that a lot of young white adults use slang. Maybe by the time they become working adult’s things may be different.

31. Class v. SES
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 6:58 PM/EST
robbie

Jacqueline- Great point.

In reviewing my posts I realized that SES and class are almost the same thing in my mind. I guess the one difference (in my mind anyway) is that being upper class does not always necessarily coincide with great monetary wealth. Think about all of those "nice" Southern families that are basically struggling to maintain those white elephants. Or the Cubans who escaped Castro and came over with just the clothes on their back and their impeccable table manners. Whereas attaining a high SES does generally mean that you have great financial wealth among other characteristics.

I think the main difference is in my mind. I think that class comes after generations and stays with you. And SES is just a combination of economic and educational indicators.

And Jacqueline, thanks for the compliment.

32. Class v. SES
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 7:08 PM/EST
robbie

And I think that I will stick to SES as class is a very touchy and complicated issue. Not like the rest of these issues are particularly simple. : ) So let me amend my former statement to say that society in general is primarily exposed to low SES Blacks.

33. talking white ...
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 8:20 PM/EST
ethie'sgirl

I, too, am often told that I speak "white English," whatever *that* is. More bizarrely, however, I have even been told that I eat "white" food! I brought some vegetarian casserole in to class one night and one of my students asked what it was. When I told her, she shook her head, "You even eat like a white person," she said. How crazy is this?

34. Is there a list of which I am unaware?
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 8:29 PM/EST
robbie

Do you guys (blacks, whites, men and women) sometimes get the feeling that there was a document circulated that detailed how we are all supposed to act based on skin color. . . Except you missed school that day? Because, I have a list too long to write here of things that I do and say that make me "white". . . None of which help me when I am driving on the NJ Turnpike. : )

35. unity in diversity
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 10:51 AM/EST

So perhaps what we need is a means to be ourselves, be accepted for that, and be able to accept others the way they are as well. In part this will require us to get over ourselves. It would help if we didn't always push eachother's buttons.

36. talking "right" and self-segregation
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 2:37 PM/EST
angie

These 2 topics are very related in my thoughts, which is good because it ties together a lot of issues in this string of posts.

First, I can only observe this issue of speaking correctly and its connection with the establishment. My boyfriend (black man; I am white woman) has been trained since birth to speak perfect grammar. (This can get annoying when he corrects my speech - because I'm a professional editor! :-) ) This often makes for amusing reactions when he meets folks (e.g., in a job interview) who he's only ever talked to on the phone. But what I think is fascinating is that when I have observed him getting together with all-black friends, they often slip into a black vernacular that none of them have been raised to use.

And this is related in my mind to the phenomenon of self-segregation, because this same group of people who went to a large, esteemed university created for themselves a group that was unreceptive, for the most part, to anyone but black students. I think this kind of thing is hard for us "let's all just get along" liberal white people. I find myself getting frustrated at being shut out, at which point I have to remind myself that there is so much history there that I have to recognize. It's very egotistical of us whites to think we always have to have it our way. That is, back in the segregation days we told blacks they couldn't hang around with us, but now that that's changed they should respond and integrate with us on command! Anyway, that's what I try to keep struggling with in my own head when I see self-segregation by minorities. And I also try to remember the feeling I had when I have traveled places where I have been the minority. I find myself scanning the room for other white people. Just another thing that calls for understanding and dialogue!

37. Good point, Angie
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 5:28 PM/EST
ethie'sgirl

What you said really rings a bell for me. I like your point about "integration on demand." I never looked at it like that, and I had to laugh out loud just now when I read that. As I said earlier, I don't really code-switch (with the exception of trying not to swear). If I'm with friends who are black, I speak the same English I learned in my house -- it isn't 100% text book, but it's close enough to pass. I don't do this out of any disdain for other forms of English. I do it because it's the way I talk. I sound pretty ridiculous when I try to speak any other way. It is, in fact, a big joke among my black friends to try to get me to speak the way they do when we're together. One friend contends that if they could just get me drunk, I'd loosen up enough to pull it off. I disagree ... I think then I'd just be slurry and silly. :) My friends have no problem with the way I talk. They would never think of ostracizing me because I "talk white." And I'm sure that has to do with the fact that they are confident and secure enough to not care.

I think I've strayed from whatever my original point was going to be ... forgive me. I had a party last night that didn't end until 5 this morning!

38. Angie..
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 7:30 PM/EST

Thanks for bringing this up, as I felt a little nervous about doing so myself. But now that you have, I feel freer to say that I have noticed this same trend in my husband, who speaks the best English really of anyone I've ever dated, and I've dated a number of men. But i think I noticed this when I first started dating him, and heard him talking to his brother on the phone..he just naturally went into another way of speaking that I had not heard him use before. Now, it wasn't an I don't know, bad sounding way of speaking, just different, more relaxed. I never had a name for what he has been doing all this time until this conversation started. It was a bit offputing at first, but after four years of living together, I don't really think about it anymore. I somehow feel that it's all a part of 'letting his hair down' when he's with his family. Anyway, thanks for letting me know I wasn't the only one who noticed.

B

39. angie, bethanie
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 7:48 PM/EST
smoothtap

I found your points very interesting. Have you guys asked your boyfriend and husband why they do this and are you OK with this or is this something that you would really like to see them change?

Just wanted to know as I code-switch and I've never saw it as a racial issue or something bad. Just something that helps me to communicate effectively in both worlds. I must tell you though after hearing the concerns over this issue I don't think I will stop but I have been giving it some serious thought.

40. viva la lingo
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 6:38 PM/EST
angie

Yes, actually my boyfriend is very up-front with saying that the reason he and his friends slip into this put-on usage is to show a connection and solidarity with the race, even especially more so since they are middle class and well-educated and need a way to show they are still a part of things. I don't see a problem with it (as a student of sociology, I actually find it fascinating). And it will probably be less and less of an issue as we see youths of all races co-opting it for their own vernacular.

The only time I see it as a problem is when it is intentionally used to make someone else feel like an outsider. And, as we've seen from this dialogue, the outsider could be a black person as well as a non-black person.

I totally agree with smoothtap that it's an example of having the ability to communicate in 2 different worlds, like if you speak Spanish with your family and English elsewhere. Having a language that links people of specific ethnicities to each other is a healthy thing.