Topic #9. Does white American have mercy for the black population of this earth?
(Showing 31-45 of 55)

31. Why we in America feel we're special...
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 9:52 PM/EST
thaduke

Link, in answer to your question. We feel we're blessed, special, on a higher plane of existance because (a) when you're not foraging for food and shelter, you can think of higher asperations (not that there aren't US citizens that have to forage for food and shelter: just very few compared to other countries. (b) Some of the poorest people in America live like kings when compared to the poorest in another country. (c) Even though she hasn't fully lived up to all of her credos and abilities, this IS a grea nation, and we can do those things that we put our minds to, and we have the freedom to do them, even though with obstacles.

As for me, if I relocated I would chose Costa Rica. Nice climate, nearby civilization, no taxes, no standing army (I believe). And they have some of the mixing going on there, so we'd not be an "odditty".

Thaduke

32. Thanks and kudos Duke
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 11:44 AM/EST

Anyone who uses the correct spelling of "schtick" is OK in my book. Hey, we both respect Yiddish. Can't be bad.

I take all your points very seriously and can't fault you on any of them. I said we were slicing and dicing matters of degree and that quickly gets to what an individual makes of their own life.

Yes, the identifiable skin color thing is rough. It is a hallmark that makes your life tougher than that led by the Irish, the Germans, the Italians; all of whom were once objects of discrimination (and why we don't disciminate against the Irish more than we do puzzles the hell out of me ;-0 ... only kidding, troops)

Duke, you are 34 and I am 61. You seem to feel regardless what you do you will be a "nigger." To everyone, everywhere? Of course not. Mordant humor within the black community is fine - so far as it goes. I read a lot of Russian inside humor. It is funny but it also centers on how f**ked up their country is.

I always wonder what sort of stumbling block that is - to institutionalize defeat.

33. Okay Smitty...you _kinda_ get it, but...
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 6:12 PM/EST
thaduke

Smitty, I'm not singing the "poor me" song. I don't like it when "we" do that about things that can be overcome by our own actions. However, as I said before, and will say again, there are SOME non-black people who will ONLY see black, with all the concomitant stereotypes. (Let me state that I do not feel that everywhere and everyone will see me this way. Please re-read my post and find the qualifier in that sentence).

I can't do a damn thing about their way of thinking (I do still at times play the "black ambassador" or "brotha from the inside telling the (fill in race) person what it's really like" (yeah, I know I shouldn't _have_ to, but it's reality sometimes).

Oh yeah...the last part about institutionalizing defeat and mordant humor. First, it's not "inside joking". Come to think about it, there isn't a damn thing funny about it. Secondly, I got that joke reported to me from a good WHITE friend of mine, one who I have no doubts would take a bullet for me, and I for him. He's my "mole on the inside" for a lot of viewpoints of white folks. Thirdly, the punchline of the joke isn't how WE feel...it's what we still, in Nineteen frickin' Ninety-nine, at the dawn of the Third Millennium have to put up with.

Stop flirting with the "it's all in your heads" crap, Smitty. If you were down with "the struggle" as you claim, I believe that you know better than that. Remember the "I AM A MAN" posters? That's where we're coming from.

ThaDuke

34. Deep Breath
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 7:25 PM/EST

Okaaaaaay ......

I don't get it at all. "...take a bullet for me,"

"I am a man" in all caps?

Notice what happens on these boards sometimes. The rhetoric goes up a notch, the words become a bit more potent, slogans seem to creep in where ideas once were primary?

I will assume you are a man. No problem. After I know you for 5 years I will be able to make a fair judgment if my assumption was correct. Now how about my white brothers and sisters ... let me know how one of them has messed with you, say, taking in the past two weeks.

Please lend me accounts which you can reasonably be certain were bias-driven.

Can do?

35. Okay...I guess you _didn't_ get it...
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 9:29 PM/EST
thaduke

Smitty, this ain't some "prove to my satisfaction" you've been hurt game we're playing here. I'm definitely not playing. The insidious thing about racism is that (a)at least in most parts of the country, and especially where I live, they're never stupid enough to "do it to you" in your face. You can be denied the job, the favor, the opportunity, and never know exactly why. You can be disciplined for something...hell, you may even deserve it, then another person who commits a similar violation, and who was guilty gets a pass, when you both have the same work performance, style, and reputation. "That," as my friend would say, "is the bitch of it". You may very well may be persecuted because of your race. Then again, you may be persecuted because of something else. Then again, maybe you're not being persecuted, and are getting your just desserts. The bitch of it is, in 1999, that we STILL actually have to even ask the question!!! Do you understand? If something happens like this to you, and the person with the power is the same color as you, then there are myriad reasons that you're getting the short end of the stick. If this person dislikes you because of your skin color, then, on top of everything else, they may have it in for you because of this alone. Unless they're a blooming idiot, and they enjoy forking over their money to me in a lawsuit, they'll never tell me the "real" reason they're shafting me, and it will forever be a question mark. The very fact that I have to even consider that they hate me for something that I could not control, shouldn't have to modify, and something that makes just about as much real difference as my shoe size or hair color just frosts my ass, and those of most African Americans, I dare say.

---more----

36. And furthermore....!!!
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 9:32 PM/EST
thaduke

By the way, don't mistake frustration in getting my point across as "sloganeering" or "rhetoric". Again, if you have any memory of the Selma bus picketers (or was it Montgomery?), you'll know that the "I AM A MAN" signs were prevalent in the group. That succinctly sums up what I've been trying to express, and what you may not still be getting.

I thought that after being in CORE and NAACP that you'd have at least an inkling that these thing still happen, and that they're not "just in our heads". That I wouldn't have to itemize my grievances and slights and injuries to you like I was in some IRS audit.

Are you looking for some absolution, some verification that you're an "all right guy?" I can't give that to you. Only God and you know if this is right. I'm sorry that you've been disillusioned about the dialogue on race in this country. I'm sorry that you can't fathom the anger and resentment. I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable. Believe me, speaking as a black man (even though I don't let it rule my life) it does the same to me. Don't you believe we'd lose all of the anger and resentment if we could be guaranteed that we'd be judged by the content of our character solely? In a New York Minute!!!

Look, Smitty. I'll still post here. I'll still talk to you. But you've gotta know that you're pissing a helluva lotta black people off with the variations of the "it's in your head" and "prove it to me" ploys. I've admitted that much of our anger is misplaced, and that some of the problem we experience we bring on ourselves. Can't you meet me in the middle, and admit that injustice to blacks does happen, and that it's a bitch, or does that make you as crazy as it makes us, and is therefore uncomfortable?

Tha' Duke

37. Well, it's thisaway
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 11:12 AM/EST

Duke, I invited you to take me up on something that makes sense to me. In my neighborhood I have two men who dislike me intensely; not for a just reason (I think), but because I personify what they fear most (I work, I take care of business, etc.)

I actually see and confront their anger maybe once a year. This I can handle with no difficulty, The rest of the time I drive them by with a cheery wave. If I had to deal with them more frequently, however, they would prey on my mind a lot more.

Duke, you are getting close to pissing ME off. Do you realize you are asking me to agree (over and over) to something I learned before you were born?

Can the multi-exclamation points stuff and the rhetoric - god, can't you see how ridiculous it is for a man to have to say "I AM A MAN"?

Take a page from charlley's book .... if you can't trust that most white people are on your side then you might as well give it up.

Once again (pant, pant) I will aver it is "degree" about which we talk. If you see the world though a particular set of lenses then these will distort that world. This is why I asked for objective examples.

You fall into the same trap as so many have - you throw a fit and make noises about how you will stick to the dialogue (thus implying a realization you could pick up your ball and go home). Get a clue, duke, the resentment should take up, say, 3% of your mind or you are one unhealthy man.

Is it that low? OK, then let's move on. Is it higher? Then you should watch your stress level and that of those around you who love and depend on you.

38. To Tha'Duke and Smitty
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 11:57 AM/EST
joan

Came back to this thread rather late and feel I'd actually have to print up and study everything you've both said in order to get a real perspective. However, I must say that I have found Tha'Duke's comments consistently sensible, fairly restrained (as in not out of control) and both understand and agree with what you say. In fact, like it or not, you get my highest compliment - for a while I thought I was reading thoughts from another woman. That means that there is introspection, emotional honesty and a sensitivity I've seen more often in women than in men. That doesn't mean I automatically dismiss what you're saying, Smitty, but I perceive you as not "getting" what Tha'Duke is saying or putting a twist on it when there's none there. Oh well - that's my two cents worth.

39. tha'guys
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 1:24 PM/EST
ottercat

No, joan, I think you're right. They're bumping heads and when they've cooled off they'll see more clearly. Good to see tha'Duke has some emotions about the subject. His affability was beginning to worry me.

40. --more--
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 5:57 PM/EST
ottercat

Okay, I thought about it. Maybe I know how to explain it.

Smitty, if you got kicked in the head every day from the time you learned to walk, you' expect it. If for some reason you didn't get kicked today, you -knew- you'd get kicked tomorrow. If the kicking stopped for twenty years, then somebody kicked you, could you believe it was an accident?

Duke, even if you are getting kicked, should you let it paralyze you? Or should you get to work making your life and your children's lives better, so maybe the kicks will stop?

Anyway, that's what it sounds like you're trying to say.

41. Who's That Calling thaduke "affable?"
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 5:57 PM/EST

Hurt my feelings much? It's the duke who started with the multiple exclamation points. I have printed out all his messages and now I will re-read his two from yesterday again. (hold on a moment)

He seems to be saying it's a shame he has to even think about racism in this day and time (that's message #1).

He seems in #2 to ask me to meet him half way and admit that "injustice to black does happen."

How about it? Pretty fair?

Just how far back did I start saying I thought we were talking matters of "degree" and might not be able to really zero in on it?

Let's say Carlton gets his food late and immediately can convince himself and the other black kids it's because they are black. He is going to be a very unhappy young man.

Suppose Carlton can't get an apartment in Dayton, Ohio even though he's answered 15 ads and he phones home and says, "Mom, I guess my luck is bad. All 15 had just been rented." Then he's a very stupid young man. Right?

Somewhere in the middle I imagine Carlton can fashion a fairly good life. He seems bright enough. He apparently will get a Colgate education and be able to inquire at the restaurant kitchen about the slow service as well as sue the pants off a landlord or two.

Duke, your point seems obvious. Of course it is a rotten deal that discrimination still exists. But it ain't gonna go away. Rage on, then. There's too many of us dumb crackers out here and we are breeding.

You have a right to every single scintilla of rage that's in your body. On the other hand, it can't be of such a degree that it rules you. Got that? It is your right to rage but, just as you would during a house fire, you overcome your fear and stress to get your kids out and call for help.

I honestly do not think you are an out-of-control man. I never did. But some are. Not so?

42. Smitty...
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 11:01 PM/EST
thaduke

Your claim to superior knowledge or legitimacy by age aside, you need to understand some things. No, let me change that. You don't "need to know" any of these things if you choose. I and others are just trying to let you see life from a vantage point that you cannot avail yourself of. I'm doing it in the spirit of humanity and understanding. If your feelings are hurt by my passion and !!!'s, I don't know what to say to you. I'm not going to stop being pissed off by stupidity committed upon black folk, and interracial couples and their offspring, and I'm not going to stop expressing the strength of my feelings (within reasonable parameters) about the injustice that still exists.

Yes, Smitty...I have it relatively good. Nice job, good kids, actually have NEVER been pulled over for DWB, although I admit it exists (maybe because of the piece of crap 72 Caddy I own...who knows :-) The overwhelming people where I live are either (a) too smart, or (b) too scared to express whatever enmity they hold for me for being a black man, or to take overt hostile actions against my wife and kids for being an interracial family. We get the nasty old lady, mouth full of sour owl s*%t looks, and the stares, but we knew this coming in. Some people will never "get it" as far as knowing that love sees no color, when properly based. That's cool: it's not for everyone, and I didn't seek or require their approval or blessings when I made my choice. I can deal with that.

However, when it comes to the point where it starts messing with my paycheck, my dreams, or my family, the proposition that I should suffer in silence, as I believe you might wish me to do, is sheer idiocy.

-----more------

43. Realize also...
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 11:02 PM/EST
thaduke

I'm sorry that you get a hard time from your neighbors. Maybe you could elaborate on their culture, background, etc. Whatever it is, though, as long as they don't affect your paycheck, your family, or your dreams, as we say, "don't trip, 'tata chip". Ignorant people will be with us always. It's when they impact our lives in personal tangible ways that I get frosted. So should you, IMHO.

You partially got what I was getting at when you re-read my screed. I do think it's a crying shame that we've sent a man to the moon, eradicated many diseases, made computers that basically run the world, and yet were still killing and screwing with people's lives because of the concentration of pigment in their skin, facial features, and what deity they worship, or don't worship. Do you mean to say we shouldn't think this is a bad thing?

I agree with you that it is indeed pretty sad that a man has to walk around with a sign saying "I AM A MAN". It was also pretty pathetic that those who loosed police dogs, fire hoses, and bullets on them didn't think to treat them like they were men (in the editorial sense...I thing when they went to the bathroom every morning they knew they were biologically male), instead of "boys" or animals that only deserved a certain standard of living, or a level of existence.

44. Know this, also...
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 11:04 PM/EST
thaduke

Yes smitty, the overwhelming majority of white people do not do these horrible things we read and hear about in the news. I believe you know there are shades and gradations of discrimination and racism though. I'd like to revise your "most white people are on your side" statement. Either they're on my side, or they just don't or can't exert the energy to stand in my way. There is a big difference there, Smitty. Ever hear the saying, "All that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good people to stand by and do nothing"? That's ALL of us, Smitty. You, me, Joe Brotha who wants nothing to do with the white race, and joe whitebread who says "hey...I didn't do anything to those people" while practicing unrecognized behaviors that exclude black people (and others) from his "world".

If you've allegedly "learned" these things, why are you arguing?

Your still here talking. You realize as well as I that in this racial dialogue we have in America, we've been exercising our option to "pick up our marbles and go home", as you so elegantly phrased it. Why marvel that this is and has been an option?

As long as you're not the one doing the discriminating, Smitty, why the defensiveness? Have I accused you of being this way. And what does your defensiveness say about some unresolved feelings about other races, even if they only occupy only, say, 3% of _your_ mind?

Tha' Duke

american love story list...subscribe with an email to amlovestories@onelist.com

45. Another view
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 10:31 AM/EST
ottercat

>discussions, particularly in the "She is >Black..." and "Does White..." threads.

>Without wishing to seem dismissive, it is my >hope that events in the coming century will make >such discussions a moot point, and that the >United States (note that I don't refer to any >race) will finally come to a modus vivendi >regarding ethnic issues. However, to some >extent, I find myself in agreement with Smitty-->I fear that this issue will not go away (at >least in our lifetimes).

>To Smitty: Do I, as an AfAm, dwell on racism? >Frankly, no. Do I let it color my outlook on >life? No. In my judgement, racism has been >around since "There was a Pharoah who knew not >Joseph" [i think before that--o.], and will >continue to be around.<

Typos mine. More later. Break's over.