Topic #9. Does white American have mercy for the black population of this earth?
(Showing 21-35 of 55)

21. A Cautious Gambit
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 8:13 PM/EST

Some opportunistic black "leaders" do a lot

of fan-flaming about the past. It seems most of the black participants in these posts don't bite

on that line of argument.

I think most white people are like me. They recognize the terrible wrongs; both past and present. But they are aware (I am 61) of changes

that have taken place in the law, in business,

and in the minds and hearts of many.

When some blacks seem transfixed by the past, when

they seem unable or unwilling to see the whole

variety of black experience, then some white

people become exasperated. They say to themselves,

"These people are not seeing things clearly and

what is more, they are being downright nasty about

it."

American blacks who move to other nations of black

populations seem (in my limited experience) to find these nations fall short. As I said in another post, you won't see Carlton or Len back in

Nigeria anytime soon (but you will see doctors and

missionaries both black and white doing service

there).

Almost every day of my life I draw a deep breath

and thank my lucky stars that I am not driving

a herd of sheep in a high Mongolian pasture or

ducking a machete in Burundi - or dodging a sniper

in Yougoslavia.

22. A little clarification...
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 9:36 PM/EST
thaduke

Smitty;

When you speak of "black leaders" you make one of the fundamental mistakes that are made when non-black peoples speak of us: that we are the Borg, led by one consciousness, one thought, one creed. The so-called "leaders" only speak for those that follow them. I don't know your political leanings, but it's like all white Americans are lead by David Duke or Pat Buchanon. Silly, ain't it? But that is what is done by non-blacks every day: they assume that since s/he is black, we automatically tow "the party line".

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23. Mistake Two...
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 9:40 PM/EST
thaduke

Mistake two: mistaking cosmetic change for a sea change. Yes. We're not having fire hoses turned on us, we can vote, we can do a helluva lot of things that we could not do even twenty years ago. Should we hit our knees thanking every non-black person for allowing us this!? HELL NO!!! This is what EVERY American is entitled to...it's not some largesse that has been bestowed upon us like little kids given a Big Wheel for Christmas! Today, at the cusp of the third millennium after the birth of Christ, I STILL hear about black people subjected to everything from "Driving while Black" police stops, to being referred to as "Gorillas in the Mist" to being taken for a ride...on the back of a pickup...by a chain. I've got people objecting to helping minorities (that includes white women) get training and opportunities in underrepresented fields, becase of ignorance and fear of a rapidly changing US. This in spite of the unemployment rate for non-white adults being two to three times higher than the general rate. So, yes...things have gotten better...I do not deny it...but the really heinous exceptions to this rule are still there, or getting worse.

I know you can't legislate what is in a person's heart. But now we have people believing, still, in 1999, that we don't have the right to exist as we wish, that we're not "real human beings" (as our buddy DavidT10 would have us believe), and other such diminutives.

24. Mistake #3
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 9:55 PM/EST
thaduke

(With apologies to Culture Club...)

Ah yes. The "we're transfixed with the past" argument.

Let's suppose that you're a normal, hardworking, reasonable person. However, you're male in a certain country. In the nation, there is a history of females being dominant, and treating you as property, taking away your rights, etc. A century or so have passed. Treatment of you by women is much improved, but some of the old thinking is very much evident by your social treatment, condition, and by behaviors still cropping up from the past. When you walk down the street, you can be subjected to one of the few outward behaviors that is still practiced. You may be whacked in the back of your skull with a stick at any time by a woman who possesses the old feelings. No one either recognizes this, or cares. You complain to the authorities, telling them there is a law against this. They either don't care, or think you're ungrateful for the kindness you've been shown for the past 100 years of not owning, torturing, or otherwise humiliating you.

It won't take long for you to start doing a "Crazy Ivan" every five seconds, checking your six for a madwoman with a stick. Even if you live in a reasonably progressive area, you can bet that there are still some of the "old guard" living there who don't like you, and will take a lick at you given the opportunity.

Can’t you see how someone would be cautious, and concentrating "on the past" in such an instance? We _know_ that most white people, when given the chance, and humane and good. However, the ones that either (a) blatantly whack us, or (b) by unexplored attitudes take little swings at us, maybe without knowing it are making life damn hard. Sure, we could ignore the past…but concussions are damn hard to recover from…

Tha’ Duke

25. Mistake Four
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 10:01 PM/EST
thaduke

"America: Love it or Leave It"...

This may not be what you wanted to convey, Smitty...but this is how it comes off. We should be grateful that we live in a land of possibilities, yes...but not grateful to any man for it. To God, yes: but not to some who thinks we should just shut up and be grateful for what we have been given. It doesn't work that way.

Whether Carlton and company know what they've got is inconsequential: whether we are a nation that lives up to its pledge of allegiance is. "ONE NATION...INDIVISIBLE...LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL."

Justice, smitty: it's not just for breakfast anymore...

Posted in respect, friendship and learning:

Tha' Duke

26. To ThaDuke
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 11:15 PM/EST
link

Thank you for everything you just stated, I agree whole-heartedly. I would like to ask the question, why do we in America think that our lives are so much better or on a higher plateau than any other culture? Just because they have wars and people are starving. Do we think that they caused these hardships by themselves? "I never wish for things unseen, only when it is brought to my attention do I covet". Has the US had wars and depression? Our lives are simply more complicated by materializm, as theirs soon will be if not careful. Hypothetically, if someone said to me, "Go back to Africa", my reply would be, "Sure, just give me a couple of million to get set up and I'll pay my house off here and I'm gone." I would go to Ghana, they are trying to offer dual citizenship to the African Americans. Other countries like Isreal do it, why not us?????? Waving my hands again.

27. Old Cautious Smitty Again
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 11:46 AM/EST

Well, duke, we are down to talking about "degrees" of things and we may not be able to slice and dice thin enough to satisfy either of us.

No, all or even most blacks (and as I said, certainly not those on this message board) do not go along with the Sharpton-esque type. BUT, if you fall with the young lady in Nigeria and fail to break openly with that Al (for the sake of unity?) then you allow the question to remain open.

There HAS been a sea change, duke, and (I am sure you will agree) when some black people remain sitting at the kitchen table clipping out stories about DWB and wrongful treatment rather than grabbing the brass ring of education or jobs that is out there, then they are doing themselves no good.

And, please, you are fully entitled to a real large dose of "nobody knows like WE know" because that is both heritage and reality. But as slavery recedes, as Jim Crow recedes, as job discrimination gets less-oppressive, then black people must come along with the program - or they will find themselves like the Serbs; a deep, dark, miserable people re-fighting battles centuries old and unable to deliver their children to a better life. Fortunately, these posts seem to suggest that many blacks are doing what's in their self interest.

And, hey, I don't apologize for suggesting that American blacks could be worse off. It's true.

Let me hear from you -

28. Questions unanswered
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 3:37 PM/EST
ottercat

Guess nobody wants to define "white" for me. Too easy or too hard? Try it this way, then. What's "black"? One African grandfather? One African great-grandfather? The descendants of Sally Hemming, who (as I understand) was 3/4 "white" though she spent her life as a black woman, are considered the "black" descendants of Thomas Jefferson today. Personally, I think they look just like the "white" descendants.

Now consider: The oldest "human" remains have been discovered in Africa, which means the human race started there,which means we all have African ancestors. Are we then all black?

Okay, it's trivial, it's extreme. My point is that they're only labels. We are however we choose to be, the persona we live. Want to be angry? The world will receive you with anger. Want to be afraid? It can be arranged.Want to be open and joyous, loving life and everything in it? You can do that too.

We have people on this site who want us to be angry,hurtful bullies. See it that way if you like. I see you as children who were hurt who grew into hurting adults. I wish I could help.

Okay, hit me.

29. Caution---no crossing zone in America, Smitty
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 9:32 PM/EST
thaduke

Oh Smitty...

I guess I didn't make myself clear enough.

You're just displaying a kinder, gentler variation of David's "if blacks would just act like real human beings" shtick. What some non-blacks fail to realize is that no matter how many degrees I get, no matter how many nice cars I drive, no matter how many suits I wear, how well I speak standard English, or what job I have, I will be just another black boy to them. Reminds me of a very sad joke: Q: What do you call a black man who finds the cure for cancer, makes $10 million a year, and wins the Nobel Peace Prize? A: A Nigger.

That's what we're up against. No matter if we put down the scissors now (as if we don't have a right to be aware of these things), and "joined the world" of opportunities you crow about, we'll still be "niggers"...do you get it yet? I can come along with the program...hell, I can PROGRAM the damn program, and it will never make a dime's worth of difference with a good hunk of the non-black population of this nation.

And do you know what's worst, Smitty. To have your concerns and real situations just dismissed. Do we want the pity of non-black folks? Hell no. Just to be judged by our actions and character, not assigned a worth by our skin color, and certainly not to be told basically, "it's all in your head", or "mind over matter".

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30. Just so you know, Smitty...
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 9:33 PM/EST
thaduke

I'm taking this opportunity in this forum to educate and help you at least think about what goes on in the black community, as I see it. I don't think you're a horrible person. I've gotta commend you for at least going and staying outside of your comfort zone, if just for a little while, and expressing what's on your mind, Smitty. Don't run off with your tail between your legs like some others here: we'll never get this thing worked out that way.

BTW: (a) At first eyeball, can you tell the difference between a Serb and a Kosovar Albanian? Didn't think so, and (b) If you don't do what's in your or your family's self interest, there is something very wrong. It just so happens that fair treatment, and not being burdened down with stereotypes is in my best interest. Hope there's not a problem with that.

Tha' Duke

31. Why we in America feel we're special...
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 9:52 PM/EST
thaduke

Link, in answer to your question. We feel we're blessed, special, on a higher plane of existance because (a) when you're not foraging for food and shelter, you can think of higher asperations (not that there aren't US citizens that have to forage for food and shelter: just very few compared to other countries. (b) Some of the poorest people in America live like kings when compared to the poorest in another country. (c) Even though she hasn't fully lived up to all of her credos and abilities, this IS a grea nation, and we can do those things that we put our minds to, and we have the freedom to do them, even though with obstacles.

As for me, if I relocated I would chose Costa Rica. Nice climate, nearby civilization, no taxes, no standing army (I believe). And they have some of the mixing going on there, so we'd not be an "odditty".

Thaduke

32. Thanks and kudos Duke
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 11:44 AM/EST

Anyone who uses the correct spelling of "schtick" is OK in my book. Hey, we both respect Yiddish. Can't be bad.

I take all your points very seriously and can't fault you on any of them. I said we were slicing and dicing matters of degree and that quickly gets to what an individual makes of their own life.

Yes, the identifiable skin color thing is rough. It is a hallmark that makes your life tougher than that led by the Irish, the Germans, the Italians; all of whom were once objects of discrimination (and why we don't disciminate against the Irish more than we do puzzles the hell out of me ;-0 ... only kidding, troops)

Duke, you are 34 and I am 61. You seem to feel regardless what you do you will be a "nigger." To everyone, everywhere? Of course not. Mordant humor within the black community is fine - so far as it goes. I read a lot of Russian inside humor. It is funny but it also centers on how f**ked up their country is.

I always wonder what sort of stumbling block that is - to institutionalize defeat.

33. Okay Smitty...you _kinda_ get it, but...
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 6:12 PM/EST
thaduke

Smitty, I'm not singing the "poor me" song. I don't like it when "we" do that about things that can be overcome by our own actions. However, as I said before, and will say again, there are SOME non-black people who will ONLY see black, with all the concomitant stereotypes. (Let me state that I do not feel that everywhere and everyone will see me this way. Please re-read my post and find the qualifier in that sentence).

I can't do a damn thing about their way of thinking (I do still at times play the "black ambassador" or "brotha from the inside telling the (fill in race) person what it's really like" (yeah, I know I shouldn't _have_ to, but it's reality sometimes).

Oh yeah...the last part about institutionalizing defeat and mordant humor. First, it's not "inside joking". Come to think about it, there isn't a damn thing funny about it. Secondly, I got that joke reported to me from a good WHITE friend of mine, one who I have no doubts would take a bullet for me, and I for him. He's my "mole on the inside" for a lot of viewpoints of white folks. Thirdly, the punchline of the joke isn't how WE feel...it's what we still, in Nineteen frickin' Ninety-nine, at the dawn of the Third Millennium have to put up with.

Stop flirting with the "it's all in your heads" crap, Smitty. If you were down with "the struggle" as you claim, I believe that you know better than that. Remember the "I AM A MAN" posters? That's where we're coming from.

ThaDuke

34. Deep Breath
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 7:25 PM/EST

Okaaaaaay ......

I don't get it at all. "...take a bullet for me,"

"I am a man" in all caps?

Notice what happens on these boards sometimes. The rhetoric goes up a notch, the words become a bit more potent, slogans seem to creep in where ideas once were primary?

I will assume you are a man. No problem. After I know you for 5 years I will be able to make a fair judgment if my assumption was correct. Now how about my white brothers and sisters ... let me know how one of them has messed with you, say, taking in the past two weeks.

Please lend me accounts which you can reasonably be certain were bias-driven.

Can do?

35. Okay...I guess you _didn't_ get it...
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 9:29 PM/EST
thaduke

Smitty, this ain't some "prove to my satisfaction" you've been hurt game we're playing here. I'm definitely not playing. The insidious thing about racism is that (a)at least in most parts of the country, and especially where I live, they're never stupid enough to "do it to you" in your face. You can be denied the job, the favor, the opportunity, and never know exactly why. You can be disciplined for something...hell, you may even deserve it, then another person who commits a similar violation, and who was guilty gets a pass, when you both have the same work performance, style, and reputation. "That," as my friend would say, "is the bitch of it". You may very well may be persecuted because of your race. Then again, you may be persecuted because of something else. Then again, maybe you're not being persecuted, and are getting your just desserts. The bitch of it is, in 1999, that we STILL actually have to even ask the question!!! Do you understand? If something happens like this to you, and the person with the power is the same color as you, then there are myriad reasons that you're getting the short end of the stick. If this person dislikes you because of your skin color, then, on top of everything else, they may have it in for you because of this alone. Unless they're a blooming idiot, and they enjoy forking over their money to me in a lawsuit, they'll never tell me the "real" reason they're shafting me, and it will forever be a question mark. The very fact that I have to even consider that they hate me for something that I could not control, shouldn't have to modify, and something that makes just about as much real difference as my shoe size or hair color just frosts my ass, and those of most African Americans, I dare say.

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