Topic #9. Have you ever had to choose?
(Showing 16-31 of 40)

16. To Jacqueline
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 2:12 PM/EST
kusuf

This has happened around me numerous times, and not only regarding race. I once dated a women

who had had a lesbian relationship before we met and she had some lesbian friends. There was no

doubt to me that they, along with her mother who had apparently been raped and whose husband

had had a child with another woman while they were still married, had deep-seated aggression

towards men, any men. As far as I was concerned it was like smoke in the air —unmistakeable. I

pointed this out to her, but she would not listen, and only months later did she admit that these

women had talked behind my back — and for what?

It tore us apart. She was in the ‘in crowd,’ and I wanted no part of crowds whatsoever, And the

fact is we loved each other deeply, but I would not settle for peace at any price. So I walked away

and it still bothers me some three years later.

I was forced to choose by other people's pain. I felt caged.

17. robbie
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 2:41 PM/EST
antionette

I had a thought about skin color: If some whites are trying desperatly to get that "Dark Island Tan," and the some minorities value, to a degree, the fair skin; then aren't they trying for the same thing?

I have seen many euro/americans so dark that I would not hazard to guess thier genetic makeup, just as there was a friend in college that was african/american,(both natural parents), and I did not know it until she introduced me to her family.

Just a thought, as a child I wanted to be blue, like the Hindu Gods. My son has asked if he could be, "more brown," like his best friend.

18. Color.......
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 3:11 PM/EST

I think the whole alluring topic of skin color just crazy. There is so much discrimination within the black community it is pathetic! I was told, that since my ex-wife was a twin the the jazz singer Sade, that I liked my women light....bright....damn near white! Go figure. I have also heard the myth white people (in general now)are more open to lighter-complexed blacks that the real dark ones, like me. I have never noticed it in the south, since I personally have more important things to be concerned with now. Do you guys have any comment on this?

19. robbie
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 3:31 PM/EST
smoothtap

I agree, no one should look down on anyone based on the way they walk or talk. I am very glad that you are being frank and I am not taking it as an argument. What you are saying is the way things should be but they are not. We still live in a world where people judge you based on your differences and not on your similarities. I try to judge others on the way they treat me and not their talk or walk. I don’t believe everyone has to code–switch. It’s a choice you make depending on your comfort level.

I would like to ask you if you think we all code-switch to some degree in life. I mean do you talk the same way to your good friends as you do your parents or boss?

I’m not trying to disagree with you I am just trying to understand your point of view, which I hold as valid.

21. for sebastian and antionette ... and then for smoothtap
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 3:50 PM/EST
ethie'sgirl

If I have to categorize my color, I'll say that I have medium-dark skin, somewhere between milk chocolate and dark. I have been told that I am "too dark" to date (several men) and that I am "too light." I don't care if a man continually falls for women of a certain skin color. Maybe he really loves those particular women (this goes for women who show a preference, too, of course). What I have sensed from men who have felt the need to criticize my light or darkness is that they aren't really interested in *me* at all, that they are paying far too much attention to my shade of brown. And this is really problematic, whether they are black or white.

Sorry to horn in or your comments to/with Robbie, Smoothtap, but here I go ... I don't think that I code-switch at all. I've been trying to think of myself in all different situations. The only thing I've realized is that I swear a lot more when I'm with my friends, but that's hardly the same thing ... and I turn that off when I'm around my mother or grandmother just as quickly as I do when I'm in front of a class or with my boss... My background is very different from yours (lower-middle-class, white, semi-rural town) but I've lived almost ten years now in areas that are predominantly black and latino and I've never felt that I needed to adopt a new way of talking to fit in or connect. Am I making sense?

22. ethie'sgirl
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:24 PM/EST
smoothtap

Yes, it does make sense but they don't have the power to promote you or hold you back on something you have worked you whole life on. If had come from a non-slang neighborhood and moved to a neighbor hood where slang was predomant, I would not code-switch because these people would not be able limit my ability to succeed in life.

23. Code-switching. . . we probably all do it. . . but not in the same way [1]
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:28 PM/EST
robbie

Re SmoothTap's question

In answer to your question, no, I do not speak the same way to everyone. I don't work so I don't have a boss, but I understand what you are saying. It's funny that you should ask me this. I was contemplating just this earlier today. I concluded that the way that I speak to my parents is different than how I speak to my parents. But the difference is not grammatical. The difference is that I filter for my parents. My dad would have a small conniption if I cursed around him or my mom---As well he should. But regardless of what I choose to call it, the crux of the matter is that yes, I do agree that a person chooses the most appropriate manner in which to communicate with each individual. My problem is that again, I am not comfortable with slang and such. My refusal to code-switch extends to the way that I treat everyone. I feel that everyone is equal. I am no more solicitous of my professors than I am of my fellow students. I treat everyone in the same deferential manner. And I expect the same. The only exceptions, of course being my parents, grandmother and aunts and uncles, etc. I, of course, let them run all over me. : )

And another thing, what do you mean when you say that code-switching is the result of a certain "comfort level"? I am assuming that you mean that when a black person is comfortable with his or her "blackness" that code-switching can occur. Based on my assumption, I can say that I take offense because again, you are making a judgment based on a refusal to speak grammatically incorrect English. And you know what? I am extremely comfortable with myself, with my "blackness". I am also very comfortable with everyone else.

24. [2]
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:29 PM/EST
robbie

Code-switching makes me uncomfortable because I feel that it otherwise contributes to the assumption that blacks don't naturally speak grammatically correct English. And if you do, then "you talk white". Whites do not have a monopoly on grammatically correct English. And I am insulted when people tell me things like, "Oh, you speak so well." I have to look at them and ask, "How would you expect me to speak?"

I guess all of this bothers me because in the past six years I have worked with many small children from low SES areas (many of whom happen to be black) and they (regardless of how young they are) would always tell me that I "talk white". As far I am concerned, this sets up another generation that feels that it is "selling out" its blackness by speaking standard English.

Wow, SmoothTap, I bet you are saying "Geez, I asked one little question!" Sorry. But I find this discussion invigorating as I am constantly correcting people when they use the phrase "talk white [or black]" So this is always a big issue for me. Especially because I happen to think that the reinforcement of these stupid stereotypes damages us all. And contribute to people world-wide thinking that all AA use phrases like "you go girl". We don't all speak that way. But we are all Black. And should be accepted as such.

25. SES matters
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:43 PM/EST
robbie

And does anyone think that people think that this so-called "ebonics" or slang is the way that blacks speak because we have all been primarily exposed to lower class blacks? Upper class blacks do not speak this way. And I don't mean higher income blacks. I mean truly upper class blacks. By contrast, lower class whites do speak using grammatically INcorrect English. Maybe if people (blacks, whites and everyone in general) are exposed to more educated blacks and higher SES blacks, they would cease to be surprised that we come with a variety of differences as well as similarities and stop trying to assign characteristics to us based on our skin color. I say this because I don't think many formerly lower class whites have heard, "My goodness, you speak well!"

26. ethie' girl....
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:44 PM/EST

I didn't mean to digress, but that has always amazed me, and I wondered what others thought about it. I am attracted to beautiful, intelligent, and independent women and yes I am color-blind and proud of it. I just wish others could view relations the same. It would make the world a much better place to live:)

27. various subjects
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:54 PM/EST
robbie

Ethie's Girl, you are totally making sense. You should not feel pressured to speak in a certain way in order to fit in. But unfortunately these pressures are all too real.

Regarding your question about preferences. I think that we all have preferences. I won't say that I wouldn't date a blue guy 12 feet tall, but I may be more attracted to green guys who are 10 feet tall. And I think that it is obviously OK to have preferences. I guess the question arises, how were those preferences constructed? And do they feed into a need to address/ignore/embrace/overturn the existing power structure?

28. robbie
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:57 PM/EST
smoothtap

My comfort level is based on my up bringing. For me it's OK to say “whaz up” when I'm with people in my area that I was raised. I don't say it to every black person I meet just because they are black. I only use it because I was raised using it. It was ok then for me to communicate with people in my area and it's still ok now. It has nothing to do with selling out. Instead it is a cultural belonging for me when I'm around my people (people that I was raised with including my white freinds). Code-switching for me as a survival tool. It helps me to make a living and also enjoy the riches of my community. If your community is the same as your work environment and you find it's not needed then that's cool. That’s your choice and if you don’t code-switch around the children you teach that’s cool too. And maybe you could even teach them it’s ok to talk however you want. I must tell you thought I may talk different around people but I still treat them the same. It’s like you, when you talk to your family you use non-curse words to convey the same meaning as curse words.

29. To Robbie: Class vs. SES
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 5:27 PM/EST
jacqueline

I am generally impressed with the way that you use language, however I am troubled with or (to be more accurate) I don't completely understand the distinction that you are making between class and SES. What do you mean by "truly upper class?" and how is their "class" distinct from their socio-economic status? And when you say "lower class blacks" do you mean not well educated? or do you mean that they have a low social rank in our culture?

I don't mean to be unreasonable picky, I just want to understand what you really mean.

Peace out :-)

30. robbie
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 5:41 PM/EST
smoothtap

I glad we are discussing this subject. It is really good to here others views. I use slang and I still get people saying I talk white. But I also get white people telling me in the work force "you are an exception because you talk just like us". Which is just as bad because I am not and exception to the rule, just one of the many that exist. I never thought slang was only a black thing. If you watch MTV you can see that a lot of young white adults use slang. Maybe by the time they become working adult’s things may be different.

31. Class v. SES
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 6:58 PM/EST
robbie

Jacqueline- Great point.

In reviewing my posts I realized that SES and class are almost the same thing in my mind. I guess the one difference (in my mind anyway) is that being upper class does not always necessarily coincide with great monetary wealth. Think about all of those "nice" Southern families that are basically struggling to maintain those white elephants. Or the Cubans who escaped Castro and came over with just the clothes on their back and their impeccable table manners. Whereas attaining a high SES does generally mean that you have great financial wealth among other characteristics.

I think the main difference is in my mind. I think that class comes after generations and stays with you. And SES is just a combination of economic and educational indicators.

And Jacqueline, thanks for the compliment.