Topic #4. Things have got to change
(Showing 99-109 of 109)

99. Shanita
Tue, Oct 5, 1999 - 12:56 PM/EST
uhope

Thanks for your response. First, I hope you don't think that I attributed the phrases you quoted above to your posts. Those are my own - at least the "bitter denial" one. I, also, do not instigate. Regardless, I was just trying to get your position on the matter clear in my own mind.

I presume you're not the type of person who uses the "if you're part black, you're JUST black" philosophy - so that's good. I don't think that denying African ancestry is the same as having a "negative reaction" towards it. It just might not be true of the individuals it's being laid upon. For example, my denying any Asian ancestry (though insisted upon by some East Indians of my acquaintance) is not the same as being negative towards the idea (I wish I had the hair, quite frankly :-) ). It's just not true of me, no matter what I look like.

The last thing I'll say on the matter is although I totally agree with your findings about African descendents in all the countries you mentioned - and more - (the slaves escaped to EVERYWHERE!), please leave it open that you may very well come upon a Latino-identified individual who is not of African descent. You DID say that it was only "highly likely" - that doesn't mean all-inclusive. All I'm saying is to respect that about them - and credit them with having the knowledge about themselves that you have about yourself.

Peace

U.

100. Uhope
Tue, Oct 5, 1999 - 6:43 PM/EST
shanita

I really appreciate the peaceful way that you have approached me even during times when we did not agree. And, I understand the message that you have been trying to get across. But, I want it to be made perfectly clear that a person can say what they want to about who they are, the facts about their ancestry and world history still remain. If that person has not done an extensive inquiry concerning their ancestry and the history of their people, then how much do they really know? It is not enough to say, "I know who I am." You do not know until you know. Nevertheless, I respect the right of any person to define themselves the way that they see fit. I have already said that. Nowhere in any of my comments did I debate or attack anyone's personal definition of themselves. This back and forth has been primarily "much ado" about nothing. But, I am concerned that this hypersensitivity has everything to do with this country's inability to talk truthfully about race and the fact that race is simply not an issue unless the governing body and citizenry of a society choose to make it an issue.

101. Facts?
Wed, Oct 6, 1999 - 12:38 PM/EST
aphrodite

I think that I understand your point Shanita.....You are stating that you believe that Africans have had a great influence on Latin people. At the moment, I do not have the time to go back through all of the posts, but I think that you alluded to Africans and Spaniards as basis for your assertion (if I am wrong about this please correct me). I am open to learning more about this issue and I am looking to you for information because you have done the research and are knowledgable on the subject. I have no desire to debate you over whatever research you have done, I simply want to know what the exact history is so that I can learn more. After all, you don't simply give your students conclusions without taking them through the steps of reaching that conclusion, do you? I want to make this clear, I do not doubt your sincerity or research and I am not asking what you base your beliefs upon so that I can refute each point, I simply want to learn more about a subject that I am not knowledgable. Although it is always good to do your own research, it is extremely helpful to have a starting point and some guidence along the way. So, I am asking you to share your knowledge and be a guide.

I am also respectfully asking you to make an effort to respect the diversity of "Latino" people and whenever possible please be specific about origin when addressing or referring to us.

Let me be perfectly clear about this - if I am or was African, I would take great pride in that lineage.

102. response to all
Wed, Oct 6, 1999 - 3:49 PM/EST

Hi, I've not been participating & since I've been informed that this is the last week, I've gone through the comments in this thread. WOW ! You've covered a lot of ground.

I'd like to commend Shanita on much of her comments regarding society in general. If we

could only bring to society as a whole what

we try to practice in our individual lives..

I guess our small contributions count(even to

just teach one other human) but we won't always

see the end result or where the ripple reaches

at its farthest.

I firmly believe that awareness by those unaware

is the first step. Only then will those with power

willingly relinquish some of that "exclusive

priviledge" to those who are at the bottom of

the socio-economic scale.

I'm interested in what the Calif crowd has said

regarding ways to make our voices heard by using

the wallet.

103. comment on Latinos
Wed, Oct 6, 1999 - 4:02 PM/EST

Sorry if this offends anyone. This will be my only

comment on this subject. It is my understanding

that many Latinos have native blood (American Indian) and that traditionally those with more Spanish ancestery where part of the 'elite.'

Those would generally be lighter skinned people.

Part of this eagerness to identify with the

European ancestery would be of course the idea

of furthering the fortunes of one's family.

The Indian part is of course, "people of color."

i have met someone from Texas who stressed that she was NOT of Mexican, but of Spanish descent.

This baffled me at first. I didn't care. I was not

from Texas. But to her it mattered. (How others

perceive us does matter.)

In any case, doesn't the church now ascribe to

assisting 'people of color' through liberation

theology ?

I don't know how any of this can help anyone.

It's just that we are all made up of many parts.

It should be enriching, not stifling nor shaming.

104. comment to Carie
Wed, Oct 6, 1999 - 4:17 PM/EST

Thanks for contributing. Although the chances

that your son's friends will do well in life are

high, I'm so glad that you are concerned for them,

and by extension, other Afri-Am males. It's also

good to make your children aware of what different

views may be out there.

The fact is that life can drastically change by

the whim of someone who wants to do harm. It usually doesn't happen when we are most vigilant, but when we are more complacent.

Having a 'half' black son means that I'll always

have that extra worry that he may be at the wrong place at the wrong time. All I can do is make him

strong in ways that I feel contribute to a good

character. Have him know right from wrong in the

highest sense, respect his elders (& his past),

respect himself, have compassion for those less

fortunate, know & love a higher Being. Hope that

he will always take the 'high road' in any conflict.

I truly think that my children prefer to avoid

conflict, avoid the pain of being viewed as 'less'

in this US culture. I think they want to proceed

with life feeling that we have gone beyond the

past inequities. Maybe this is the best way at

the moment. The future WILL be better. I do see

an inkling of some progress in the way the youth

deal with each other today.

And I know that when their backs are against the wall, my children will not deny WHO they are in

all the variety.

105. comment on Cherokee
Wed, Oct 6, 1999 - 4:30 PM/EST

Yes, I agree that the cherokee were known to have

harbored those who were fugitives. Did you know that the women had the final say in tribal matters ? I have only heard positive accounts of the interchange between blacks & Cherokee. My

2nd husband's family is strongly Cherokee, but

in the north they are considered black. His

mother is actually 3/4 "native" american, three

grandparents from western TN. The children of his generation did not know this until after 'Roots'

came out & they did some research, bcz it wasn't

really discussed by their parents. Their father

is black & that is how society sees the family.

I am glad for the opening up after 'Roots'

was aired. It seems to have given back SOME of

a lost identity. No one should feel denied know-

ledge of her past if she wants to know it.

106. ethnic lineage
Wed, Oct 6, 1999 - 4:44 PM/EST

random thoughts:

I think the 2nd generation turns it's back on

it's heritage and tries to assimilate, to be

American. My maternal grandmother was Czech &

her first language was Bohemian. She spoke & read the language. My mother would never have wanted to learn the culture. To me, however, it was very interesting. It gave my a sense of something deeper & stronger from the past.

Interestingly, I have a friend who has some Czech

ancestory & the food I make (isn't food a wonder-

ful link to our past & to other cultures ?) which

my family enjoys, doesn't 'taste right' to her.

Ahh, our individual memories.

In Hawaii, a person is not Asian or Caucasian or

Hispanic or Polynsian. One has to be very specific. She is Hawaiian, Filipino, Portuguese.

Or Chinese, English, Norwegian, Hawaiian. Or

Hawaiian, Irish, Spanish. Or Samoan, German.

Nothing is left out ! There are Puerto Ricans,

Koreans, Japanese, Okinawan, Tahitian, Maori,

Guamanian, Russians, etc.

On national forms, we check off as many varieties

(that is, my family) of ethnic groups as we can.

One for each person, so we cover them all. It doesn't matter how we look. The census person

says we cannot be a combination, so we use each

person to represent one of the choices. Chinese,

Caucasian, Native American & African American.

107. 2nd Generation
Wed, Oct 6, 1999 - 8:06 PM/EST
bb

I've been away for sometime and just got a chance to rejoin the conversation. The point that Amethyst makes about the second generation moving away from their heritage is also made in the book The Edgewalkers. The succeeding generations, especially those of multiracial background, often strive to get back in touch with all their roots and cultural heritage. After reading all the posts, I guess I worry (like Shanita) that while we could get really involved in conversations about heritage and lineage, we are missing the really critical conversations like how we can keep up the struggle for justice and opportunity for everyone. At any rate, I feel fortunate to have been in this dialogue group whatever turn the conversation took.

108. thanks
Thu, Oct 7, 1999 - 4:38 PM/EST

just want to thank everyone since I don't know if I'll be able to check in tomorrow. easily the most satisfying on-line discussion I've had and I have appreciated each and every post. I don't know if it's an accident or what, but the last two weeks at the rec center where I play ball- where there are teenagers up to oldsters like me, white guys, African-Americans, Samoans, other Asian- Americans, gangsters, working class and yuppies; there has been nothing but mutual respect

and love, even dialogue, all on the nieghborhood court (and all men!). here's to making connections, both here and out in world. peace.

109. Aphrodite
Thu, Oct 7, 1999 - 10:14 PM/EST
shanita

I was very touched and very flattered by what you wrote. The point that you made about being specific when talking about Latino people is well taken. Yes, my research has shown me that Africa has played a major role not only in the Latino culture but much of if not the entire world. I can help you to have more information on much of what I have been talking about by suggesting three interesting books: A People's History of the U.S. (1492-Present) by Howard Zinn [big book, but an easy read]

Two Nations: Black and White, Separate, Hostile, Unequal by Andrew Hacker [small book, but filled with interesting points. Be forewarned: he uses the "H" word a lot.]

Black Spark, White Fire: Did African Explorers Civilize Ancient Europe? by Richard Poe

[big book, but well-written]

I came across these books after traveling abroad for many of my answers. Use them as a starting point for your own research. If more people did what you are about to do, there would be so much less ignorance about issues of race and its lack of importance in the overall scheme of things. You will also be able to have a perspective on why the "one drop rule" paranoia ever existed in the first place. Please let me know if I have not responded properly to your request. Otherwise, enjoy your research and good luck!