Topic #4. Things have got to change
(Showing 55-69 of 109)

55. Laura Ca
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 12:00 PM/EST
shanita

You are right! Which is why I feel that this dialogue needs to take place on a grander scale because when a problem or an issue has not been dealt with, how can people even begin to come to terms with it, or put it into its proper perspective? It may be painful at first, but once it is all out in the open, the pain turns to relief and ultimately to peace.

56. democracy and capitalism
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 12:52 PM/EST
shanita

Kann, again welcome to the discussion group. Your perspective is distinct and the points and questions that you bring up are pertinent. I, however, am at a loss as to how to respond directly to your questions because I was not born until the 70's. I missed the enthusiam and comradery and idealism of the 60's movements. I tend to put much less faith in the government's ability to be unbiased. I personally don't see a "fair" government as possible until individual people on a grand scale level begin to discuss and deal with the issue of race. We have all been lied to. It is time to clear the air. I agree with you that many things changed for the better during the 60's. But, I think it is important to stress that LAWS were changed and for the most part NOT the people. Sure we can create more laws to ensure that people aren't discriminated against, but racism and racial bias lives in the heart and mind. There is no man-made law that could ever eradicate that. The way we think and feel about other people governs the way we behave toward them. I have been taught to leave the judging to God, so for the most part, (I am only human you know), I do. However, I do not own any natural resources in this country, and I am not the owner or head CEO of any MAJOR corporation. Even if I was inclined to hold ill will toward any one of the disenfranchised groups in America, I would not be able to make or break their chances at achieving their portion of the American dream. And lets face it, money talks and b.s. walks in this country. The best way to show racist people in high places that we are not going to "take it" anymore is to stop making them rich. It is time to put our money where our mouth is and financially boycott the people that hurt us. And you mark my words Kann, their behavior will change quicker than you can say $.

57. Kann
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 1:26 PM/EST

It's nice to have you in our group! I just read your bio, and I never would have guessed from your postings so far that you're a community activist! (Ha Ha!) We do indeed live in a flawed democracy; I don't know if there is such a thing as a perfect one. Ideally we should all work together to reduce racism, but the forces that want to keep it strong are better organized these days, it seems. Unfortunately, I think that many people today, regardless of race, feel a total lack of efficacy when it comes to their power to influence government and society. Low voter registration and even lower turnout are symptoms of this. One of the reasons things DID change in the 60's was that people took the power and used it to make things better. This power has not been passed on to the next generations. The feeling of powerlessness needs to change, but the question is how to make people realize that they DO have the power if they take a stand? Children need to be taught from an early age that they can make a difference if they try, and that it won't necessarily be easy - anything worth fighting for usually isn't. The belief that all people are equal must also be instilled in our children, and that this equality is something that must always be fought for through the use and improvement of the system. While it would be nice if our schools taught this, I think the education must start with one's family. The things we learn early on stay with us and influence our lives and how we deal with life's challenges.

58. Shanita
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 1:27 PM/EST
aphrodite

"after I read your response, I could see that you are unaware of a few key historical facts. And, I am sure that if you are interested you will do the

research yourself."

Did you mean to sound condescending? Or, have I misinterpreted your words? I would be open to a dialogue on this subject, but I fear that you are not open to my opinion. You state that you respect my definition of my race, but you failed to resist the urge to let me know that your definition of my race is somehow more accurate or valuable than my own. Do you even see how insulting and paternalistic that is? It is these types of exchanges that deepen the divide between races.

59. Creating Change
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 11:39 AM/EST
bb

Hi All! Welcome Kann!

I was away over the weekend and exhilerated this Monday morning to read the discussion that has been going on in my absence. I think the energy level has picked up considerably which is good--now we'll probably have some of the tougher discussions (hopefully continuing to be respectful as we do). I would like to add a couple of thoughts. To Shanita, I would like to hear your information on the historical facts about blacks and Latinos. I know I could research it but I think since it is on the table it would be important for our discussion. To Kann, I was in highschool and college in the sixties and remember well the stirring activism that was going on and how it galvanized so many of us. But I think that it is a different world today. I worked on the Vote-No-On-209 campaign here in California (209 ended affirmative action programs in universities and government). In Sacramento there was such a small group of us to do so much work. The money for TV advertising was so short there were no ads in Sacto, only L.A. and San Francisco. We could not even rally most Democrats, white women, or people of color to support the cause. It felt demoralizing. After 209 passed, many groups lamented that they should have gotten more involved. I think today, there is not the kind of horrible pain that happened in the sixties. We are just complacent enough and have enough material security (even those getting welfare checks) to not want to risk losing anything. To be an activist you must face risk and loss. My experience with we human beings (I work with lots of people in different organizations to create change) is that we often don't seek change until it gets really painful. So I guess the way I cope with the fact that 209, and 187 (no medical care or schooling for illegal aliens), and the english-only initiatives all passed in California is knowing that sometimes things have to get a lot worse before we try to make it better again.

60. creating change
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 1:49 PM/EST

i would like to thank Kann for bringing up the poliical aspects of this conversation- and for shanita in perspective- money talks and and while laws can make a difference- no law is going to be permitted to pass that disrupts real power- our government will only support the economic machine that is in herently racist. on the other hand, i find Bill Bradley to be so down with these issues- it is no accident- he was immersed in black culture as an athlete- no matter how priviledged- and he speaks from personal experience- on the other hand i find it hard to support affirmative action, i live in Cali, and i lean towards a libertarian free market. huge corporations can meet any racial quotas demanded of them, but they will not stop expoiting black culture, poverty, and the world economy until we run them out of town- economically - so to speak.

61. Historical Facts, Etc.
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 3:21 PM/EST
uhope

I, too, would be interested in the reasoning behind Shanita's statements to Aphrodite. Although I do agree that there is an abundance of African ancestry among Latinos of many countries, that ancestry is not applicable to every Latino individual. And it's been my unfortunate impression that often when anyone emphasizes or "outs" African ancestry in a group of people or individual denying it, there's a spirit of "therefore, you're no better than us (African Americans)", which is actually quite a negative attitude. Why is it that Blacks (in America, particularly) have such a burning desire to claim every "relative" they can? In every other ethnicity, one has to "prove" they're part of it - by their culture, language, etc. For instance, there's a certain pride that establishes the traits make a "true" Irishman, Italian, Puerto Rican, Dominican, for example. If you don't pass their "test" (walking the walk, talking the talk, as it were), you're not one; no matter what you say. But "one drop" (entirely a false notion) makes you "black", no matter what you look like or how you were raised.

Don't get me wrong - I most definitely DO NOT believe it is an insult to be (or be considered) "black" - I often wonder why people seem to feel that way. But I also don't believe it's so all inclusive to be a veritable "dumping ground" ethnicity, either. If someone doesn't consider themselves "black", they don't have to be. It's not necessarily evidence of a bigoted attitude. I just don't consider "black" a level someone needs to be "brought down to". It's so much better than that - as are all ethnicities. Why not be "brought up to it"? That's all I'm sayin' :-)

62. Aphrodite-in clarification
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 7:15 PM/EST
shanita

If you have any questions on the subject of what "Latino" is or isn't, that is for you to research. As I said in my comment before I am not here to define you. Therefore, for me to get into a war of words with you about your current definitions is out of the question. I mean you absolutely no ill will. BB- respectfully, in reference to your question, no, there is nothing more that I will add to the subject.

63. Creating change in the government
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 7:23 PM/EST
shanita

I just wanted to say that I will be interested in learning more about this perspective because as I have previously stated it is the one into which I have the least insight.

64. Uhope
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 8:01 PM/EST
shanita

Sadly there is neither time nor discussion space for me to point out all of the glossed over or missing pieces in the puzzle that is world history. I was taught much of the same history that everyone else was taught in school. And, I knew that I was not being given the full story so I did extensive research because I wanted to know all of the things that I wasn't being told. There are countless beliefs and attitudes that people in this society have acquired about peoples and countries based on world history "American style." It is inappropriate and impossible for me to challenge all of these beliefs and attitudes in this forum. But, Uhope, if you read the comment that I wrote concerning the students that I teach in my class, you will notice that I never said that my Latino students were "black" I said that they were "people of color". And, they are. The Spaniards themselves were people of color before they ever set foot in the Americas etc. etc.

65. change-shanita
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 10:02 PM/EST
domdotcom

i went away for the weekend, and decided to read the posts to 'catch up'. wow! i found shanita's statement to aphrodite about her latino/african connection interesting. all my life i've always had someone like shanita try to tell me who and what i am. this is not a knock against someone who feels she knows her stuff, it's just a reminder that you can't tell someone who they are. they know themselves.

this is supposed to be an open discussion. you can't make a vague comment and not expect to be called on it. no one wants to look up your research. it's that simple, we can't be open if we're running to look up stuff. you said it, back it up. we're all interested.

66. domdotcom
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 11:24 PM/EST
shanita

Spoken like a true instigator. Surely, if you are that interested, then just like me, you will do the research.

67. People Of Color
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 12:22 PM/EST
bb

I thought Spaniards, like Italians, could be dark swarthy people or fair but identify as caucasian (Castillian?). Guess I'll have to do some research.

68. Shanita
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 3:18 PM/EST
uhope

Every "person of color" is not of African descent. I believe that expression refers to anyone not considered "white", including Asians, Latinos, Native Americans, African Americans, etc. I, and apparently others, do not feel it is out of line to ask you for the reasoning behind your statements to Aphrodite. You've implied that she is wrong or misled in some way and as a teacher, it would seem most appropriate to explain - not just drop a statement and refuse to comment any further. I also did not get the impression that Domdotcom was instigating at all. She was merely explaining how frustrating it can be to have someone else tell you "what you really are" based on their opinion and not reality - the old "you're just confused" bit. I've experienced that myself.

I have researched this topic and I'm sure Aphrodite is very well aware of her ethnic background. I reiterate that every Latino or Hispanic person is not of African descent. What research have you done that proves otherwise? I'm sure the good people here are not expecting a bibliography and footnotes. Just some reasoning. In my research, for instance, it seems to be more the case that Latinos of African descent celebrate their African roots even more than African Americans do, from the musical rhythms, religious aspects (cumbia, etc.), to the open admiration of African features like full lips and hips. However, their culture is NOT African American, so we should not expect them to have the same viewpoint or attitude as you do. It doesn't make them wrong or in denial.

It doesn't have to be a "war of words", Shanita. This forum was created for an interchange of opinions, information, and hopefully insight as to why certain people think and feel the way they do. To imply that someone is misinformed and not back it up is not conducive to this purpose.

69. public action influences more than government
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 7:58 PM/EST
kann

greetings laura ca, bb, shanita, patkelly, and others,

people working together for change can influence more than government officials and laws. remember those collective shaming and collective boycott strategies of recent years? here's an example from the border, in a largely Latino/a community with high poverty rates and long historical experiences of 'colonization' by outside corporations and their cheap wages.

last summer, a group of community scholars (high school seniors) did action research on four big banks. their detailed results (ratios of $ generated from the community to $ exported to corporate headquarters) showed shocking inattention to the old '70s congressional Community Reinvestment Act. small businesses face a big capital squeeze. the results caused NO revolution, i know, but the newspapers picked up the issue and STAYED with it, so much so that the bank executives were scurrying to try to show what they're doing and how they will change.

and a footnote on Props 187, 209: i hear you, bb and laura ca, on how disheartening some of these campaigns, coalitions, and opponents can be. but Prop 187 was challenged in court, and "resident" children continue to be enrolled in schools. here in texas, the 3-man circuit court decision addressing prop 209-like matters had short-term negative consequences, but a variety of schools have gone back to the drawing boards to examine admission criteria in ways that don't "obsess" about standardized test scores compared with other important factors like GPAs, etc.

good websites:

www.communityscholars.org

www.rethinkingschools.org

enjoy!