Topic #20. Opposing seeing Others in interracial relationships--or being a hypocrite
(Showing 17-26 of 26)

17. For robin
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 5:00 AM/EST
blackwoman

Why do you say "complaining" and "it takes hard work and sacrifice"? Are you referring to BW being lazy or otherwise somehow responsible every time a BM decides to date outside his race? I only see people giving their opinions on topics, which is the point of this whole dialogue, I thought. Or maybe we BW should just stay silent, especially when we are not conceding to what someone else thinks is righteous? Also, I really don't see my comment, "as close to White as he can get", as not being fair to anyone. I've been said to act "too white" before and depending on who I was with at the time, it's been said that I have "caucasian features" in my case, light-skin...that's just everyday life for people of color...no need to tip-toe around the point.

Anyway, who said anything about a Black man not loving his own race just because he's dating a WW? Or, that BM equate WW to a symbol of success? I think perhaps you are thinking that way, or you are confusing me with jewel in one of the other topics. The point of my statements was that I would like to see the IRR situation more balanced. It would be ridiculous for us (BW) to go around trying to stop someone from dating whomever they please. I do think, however, that BW should feel liberated enough to date outside our race when and if we chose to and to accept love even if it does come from a man who is not B. Perhaps, judging from your statements, you find it hard to believe that some B parents, like some W parents, also go to lengths to "protect" their daughters from dating WM, including filling our heads with taboo and myth about what it says about you if you date a WM.

To put it in your words, I also think that a Black woman can still love herself and her race, be proud of her heritage and her family and still be in love with a White man.

18. allow me to clarify...
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 8:03 PM/EST
robin

Talk about taking things out of context. First of all, I never conceded that black men see ww as a symbol of success or that successful BM date WW. That was your claim in the question that you posed to me. "What do you think about the fact that the most prominent black men...are with white women?" What were you inferring with that question?

What I would like to see erased are these notions that IR are not right, and a lot of BW feel that way (so do BM, WM and WW). The only way that this is ever going to happen is for society to become more balanced. I was not claiming that BM go for WW because BW are lazy, that is ridiculous. When I talk about hard work- I mean the work that lies ahead for all of us who are looking for a more egalitarian world, a world where people don't look at IR as something that is wrong. As of now, no matter how many successful black people there are in the country, there are still serious flaws with the judiciary system. I'm sure I don't have to tell you about racial profiling, the uneven application of capital punishment, mandatory drug sentencing, the discrepancies in the school systems, etc. I am talking about making fundamental changes in society, changes that will allow us all to be liberated enough to date whomever we want and not be made to feel like we are abandoning our heritage or betraying some unwritten code. (Understand that I do not feel this way, but I know many people do.)

I'm curious as to what made you think that i don't understand that some black parents don't want their children to date white people? There is no doubt in my mind that some black parents are abhorred by the thought. Prejudice works all ways and it is always unfair and dangerous.

19. for blackwoman cont.
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 8:11 PM/EST
robin

I think, in essence, you and I share a lot of the same opinions. I agree that BW should wake up and if they so desire stop pushing away potentially good mates. Maybe you can explain to me why some black women take BM/WW relationships to heart as a negative against BW. I have some ideas, but I would like to hear your perspective. (you, too, davorah) Also, why do you think that IRs are so unbalanced- more BM/WW relationships and not the reverse?

20. For robin--I'm glad you took the time to clarify
Fri, Oct 1, 1999 - 4:09 AM/EST
blackwoman

I'm glad you took the time to explain yourself because, to me, it appeared as if you were casting a shadow on what I had to say. I don't feel that I'm complaining, and if you think I am, then that says to me that you really aren't interested in my true opinion, so what's the use of talking. I do not think that you were justifying the notions you mentioned above, but why did you bring them up? They don't reflect my opinion on the situation. I think you assumed that that's where I was coming from. Personally, I think the fact that BM who have achieved some amount of success are more likely to be involved in BM/WW relationships partly because, the more success you achieve, the fewer B people you encounter in your everyday life. So, instead of remaining isolated or lonely in trying to wait for another compatible woman who is B, why not open yourself up to IRR's? This is how I feel partly as well. I'm not going to put my love life on hold just because of the lifestyle I am aiming for...materialistically, but most importantly, spiritually.

As far as my "claiming" something with my question, that is not where I'm coming from either. I asked you because I have never heard a WW's opinion on the matter...and you still really have not answered the question. Up until now, I've discussed this with other BW who agree with what I said earlier. I don't think it is just a visibility issue, either.

21. For robin, cont'd
Fri, Oct 1, 1999 - 4:13 AM/EST
blackwoman

In all my life, there are only about 6 BW/WM IRR couples that I have seen. All the others involved BM and WW, of which there have been many. I am not alone in noticing this, although I speak for myself when I say the IRR situation is unbalanced. It is even reflected in the media. Take a look at commercials, for example. When you see IRR's potrayed in commercials or in the media in general, how often do they involve BW/WM or BW with any other race besides B? Again, I can count that number just about on one hand, whereas BM/WW IRR's seem to be the norm. PBS's "America's Greatest Love Story" is just another example of what I'm talking about. When you sit down and really think about it, what do you think of this?

22. Why would a BW take BM/WW IRR's to heart as a negative?
Fri, Oct 1, 1999 - 5:19 AM/EST
blackwoman

Why wouldn't a BW take it to heart as a negative when she sees BM/WW relationships? What are the first thoughts that come to your mind during the rare times when you might see a WM dating or married to a BW? I know from personal experience that some WW who I also see are involved with BM don't like to see me with my fiance just as I sometimes feel that resentment when I see BM/WW IRR's. We're all human, so I think no matter what race you are, you'll find others who share at least similar feelings about similar situations, whether they admit to them or not. I think it has something to do with not knowing how to deal with new situations. To overcome these feelings, there has to be a desire to gain insight, patience, some kind of spritual revelation...whatever.

You seem like a politically active person. Let me say that I agree that our "system" of working needs a tune-up. Yes, changes have to come about within the people who create this "system". Let me say also that I don't think in terms of my trying to bring about major changes in our sytem or in the world, although I commend those who do commit their life's energy to just causes. Where would we be without the brave people who fight for civil rights? Still, I focus more on my own small part of life. That may sound selfish, but I've decided that the best contribution I can make to easing contraversy around IRR's is to live my life according to what I've been saying in these dialogues. I'm applying to another part of my life what I've learned in church. Not everyone has a chance or is even able to read the Bible. Sometimes you are the only Bible they will see, and your action's should reflect your beliefs, thus communicating what you are about. From that, let other people decide how they are going to react to you. I enjoy comparing and contrasting my views vs. someone else's views, but I can't see myself spending energy trying to change anyone's ideas about IRR's...not for too long anyway.

23. to blackwoman...
Fri, Oct 1, 1999 - 4:56 PM/EST
robin

I don't think that I've given you any indication that I don't want to hear what you have to say, if it came accross that way, then I apologize. I am interested in your perspective and that's why I asked you your opinion on why so many black women resent BM/WW relationships (even when they are involved in IR). You seem to think that most people women (whether black or white) feel as you do when it comes to seeing men of their race date outside of that community. For me, that is absolutely not the case at all. I have always been happy to see IR, no matter if BW/WW, WM/BW or any other mix. I'm a little offended to hear you say that we share similar feelings on this situation whether we admit it or not. The more IR couples I see, it feels more to me as if more and more people are accepting it and I honestly don't care if the man is white and the woman is black- god bless.

I am a little confused as to what it is exactly that you are asking me. I have tried to answer all your questions and if there is something on your mind that I haven't responded to, please bring it up.

Finally, as for the portrayal of IR in the media, I don't know what you've been watching or reading, but I hardly see any representation of IR. That's one reason why I felt that ALS was so poignant. It actually acknowledges the fact that couples like us exist. Mainstream TV and films, once in a great while will feature IR couples. Off hand, I can think of ER (BM/WW), that movie with Wesley Snipes (not Jungle Fever)(BM/WW BM/AW), and the Jeffersons (WM/BW)- big deal. I'm taking whatever I can get from hollywood and the major networks when it comes to IR. I also think that major corporations still feel that it is too risky to use advertisments that contain IR. So, when you consider what is portrayed as the norm in the media- it is evidently not IR. It is clearly middle class America- white family, black family (and their token friend of either race).

24. to blackwoman cont.
Fri, Oct 1, 1999 - 5:04 PM/EST
robin

I think that I've been missing part of your argument all along. Hopefully, I've gotten a little insight. I think that a lot of black women want to date only black men and aren't interested in any other race- on a romantic level. (because of history, taboo, culture, etc.) This accounts for some of the discrepancies between the numbers of BM/WW and WM/BW couples. Does this notion contribute to the resentment factor that BW feel towards BM/WW relationships? (almost like saying - "You're good enough for us, but we're not good enough for you?!!")

If this thinking does exist how does it effect how some black women treat you when they learn of your involvement with a white man?

25. For robin
Sat, Oct 2, 1999 - 8:51 PM/EST
blackwoman

I'm afraid I can only give my opinion about why I sometimes resent seeing BM/WW IRR's. Since this is really the first time I've seen someone else (davorah) who is in my same situation say something about it, I really can only guess why so many other BW resent it. Yes, I do think that there are many other women B and W who inwardly feel as I do, which is why it was a bit of relief for me when davorah brought up the topic. I'm glad that you do not to feel the same way, and I'm sorry that you feel that I was pointing that finger at you, but it is hard to admit it if you do.

As far as the media, I'm not talking just about in-depth portrayal, like ALS. I'm talking about every instance in which you see BM and WW characters who are obviously couples. I'm not saying that you are going to see a full-length sitcom featuring an IRR couple, but every time there is a glimpse of one, it is usually between a BM/WW. You are right, the occurrences are not going to jump out at you, but I think you'll see what I'm talking about.

26. For robin, cont'd
Sat, Oct 2, 1999 - 8:56 PM/EST
blackwoman

From my own observances, when the media does go so far as to show even a glimpse of an IRR couple, it is usually a BM/WW couple, thus indicating subconsciously, subliminally, whatever, that BM/WW IRR's are the norm when and if you enounter such a couple. I think you hit it right on the head when you said, "[ALS] actually acknowledges the fact that couples like us exist." Right, couples like you, BM/WW. I agree that any indication of acceptance, acknowledgement of IRR's is a step in the right direction. But, I have to admit that I get tired of the same old story/scenario. Don't get me wrong, there are some independent films, B movies, etc. that I've seen, but I think generally BW/WM IRR's are simply ignored.

Maybe this is another reason that has to do with why I feel resentment at seeing BM/WW IRR's...not directed at the actual couple, but at our society. When I asked the opinion of some other BW I talk with over the net about ALS and this whole dialgue thing they watched some episodes, looked at some of the dialogues and felt the same way...same old tired story. It's like this supposed acceptance of IRR's is going to trickle down the way "tolerance" always does, i.e. the already-privileged get the first privileges, and B women remain, as ever, unseen. This is truely the only reason I'm here, to stand up and be counted. If another woman sees my comments and feels relief or some kind of grounds to resolve any conflicting issues she may have, then I'm satisfied.

Yes, there have been other BW who have indicated their dislike of my choice of men, but I'm feeling that they are not coming from anyplace too different from anyone who is just not going to like seeing me date a WM.