Topic #16. Are education and economics the key?
(Showing 27-41 of 55)

27. to alicia - one last thing: FYI
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 3:57 PM/EST
ben

At its core, affirmative action should try to offset past injustices by fashioning a campus population more truly reflective of modern America and our hopes for the future. Unfortunately, a pair of lawsuits brought against alma mater pose a threat to such diversity. Not content to oppose formal quotas, plaintiffs suing the University of Michigan would prohibit that and other universities from even considering race as one of many factors weighed by admission counselors.

So drastic a ban would scuttle Michigan's current system one that takes into account nearly a dozen elements -- race, economic standing, geographic origin, athletic and artistic achievement among them -- to create the finest educational environment for all students.

This eminently reasonable approach, as thoughtful as it is fair, has produced a student body with a significant minority component whose record of academic success is outstanding.

Times of change are times of challenge. It is estimated that by 2030, 40 percent of all Americans will belong to various racial minorities. Already the global economy requires unprecedented grasp of diverse viewpoints and cultural traditions. I don't want future college students to suffer the cultural and social impoverishment that afflicted my generation. If history has taught us anything in this remarkable century, it is the notion of America as a work in progress.

Do we really want to risk turning back the clock to an era when the Willis Wards were isolated and penalized for the color of their skin, their economic standing or national ancestry?

To eliminate a constitutional affirmative action policy would mock the inclusive vision Carl Sandburg had in mind when he wrote: "The Republic is a dream. Nothing happens unless first a dream." Lest we forget: America remains a nation with have-nots as well as haves. Its government is obligated to provide for hope no less than for the common defense.

Gerald R. Ford, August 1999

28. To bbc : What have you done to help progress?
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 4:38 PM/EST

bbc,thank you for your comments.First I would like to say that you are a noble person to recognize that you are in a position to make a difference and choose to do so.The things that I am doing stems from my philosophy of,first you must help yourself,then you must help your family,then you must help your friends,then your immediate community etc.

I have helped myself through business,etc.to attain middle class status.I then took on the responsibility to help my family.When all of my family members are on positive automatic pilot with their lives,then I will move on to help my friends.etc.bbc,it is out of order for people to go out to save the world and they can't even help themselves.Let alone their family.The way that I help is in nurturing the self esteem of the children in our family.Positive words and actions mixed with a lot of hugs and a "YOU CAN DO ANYTHING" speech from time to time has worked a minor miracle.When I say the children in the family,that includes neices and nephews and cousins etc.bbc,every family has at least one person that has made it.If that person would take on the responsibility to help at least the young members of their families,the newspapers would have nothing to write about.

29. Whew!
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 5:13 PM/EST
alicia

Where do I begin? Johnizen it seems to me you were

a victim of Affirmative Action in that situation.

Apparently, the firm felt they should fill their

quota for minority WOMEN.The feelings you felt on

an individual level are the same feelings a white

man would have if his merit were disregarded

because of skin color. It would take the highest

form of magnanimity to shrug off losing a job

opportuniy, which would help to feed his

family,simply because minorities thru the ages

haven't gotten a fair shake. I think he would feel

the sting of discrimination just as much as anyone

else. 2 wrongs do not make a right.

It seems to me that many minorities or POC(only

albinos lack pigment) view whites as this massive,

homogenous force of bigotry. Lord knows there are

white bigots. A minute number have even been born

again into human beings. But for the most part the

majority of white people are just ordinary people

trying to survive and get along. Their ignorance

can sometimes be abysmal when it comes to other

"races" and/or cultures. Alot of them can feel the

animosity projected towards them. Some are

confused by "guilt". They are repulsed by the idea

of slavery, they dreamed with Martin Luther King,

they married a non-white because skin color was

not a factor in love matters. Yet to many, their

skin color will always designate them as

oppressors. They will always have to pay the price

for a shipload of Portuguese slavers or a Gen.

Custer or Columbus. To carve the society up in

"groups" enables us to ignore the faces and the

hearts. It's easy to condone affirmative action

when white=oppression. But take one person and

circumstance uniquely and you can see that this

policy benefits nonwhites at the expense of

whites.

30. affirmative action....hmmm
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 6:08 PM/EST
alicia

When the measures for dismantling affirmative

action practices passed in California I remember

hearing a young highschool student on the radio.

It was

just a soundbite. She was crying and wondering

how she was going to get into college now. She was

hispanic. I found it peculiar that her only way to

college would be by utilizing a policy which

placed her on campus because of the color of her

skin. Her intellectual capacity was not really

important and she had subconsciously bought into

this.

When I applied to UC Santa Barbara I checked all

applicable ethnicities on the color bar. I suppose

their quota for Native Americans had not been met.

That's what they chose to gleen from my mélange.

Then I began to speculate: "My God, this

institution doesn't even care whether I have

brains or not, they just needed some color on

campus!" Of course I wasn't the only one who

thought this. Lots of whites had the same opinion.

And then one woman proved my point by having a

full ride scholarship with a 1.7 grade point

average. She was hispanic. My friend who is white

had to work a restaurant job to pay tuition. She

ate what she brought home from work. She is

extremely intelligent. She tried to get grants but

her Dad made too much money. He hadn't finacially

cared for her since she was 6. It is not difficult

to see the unfairness of this. Jenn eventually

graduated, joined the Peace Corps in Africa for 2

years and is now pursuing her goals in San

Francisco. The girl with the 1.7 ave. didn't make

it through her second quarter.

31. affirmative action PT2
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 6:11 PM/EST
alicia

I know that minorities are at a disadvantage

educationally. But putting these people in a

setting where they must compete as if they'd had

all the opportunities in the world is another

disadvantage. This problem should be addressed at

the lower levels: grade school, junior high. Low

quality inner city schools should be upgraded.

Bring in the computers, disgard the out of date

text books, PAY teachers more money!!! Have more

remedial courses for ALL in need. Base NEED on

economic aspects not racial. Closing the gap of

disparity requires moving back to the point where

it occurred in the first place.THE FAMILY NEEDS TO

INSTILL THE IMPORTANCE OF EDUCATION!!!Perhaps this

young student on the radio would have known how

she was to get into college: Pass the grade.

There are many minorities who feel education is

for the white man. A small percent even feel

education is a sellout. There are so many people

of all colors who read nothing more profound than

the TV guide!

Sorry, I'm getting emotional and probably off the

point.

I want everyone to get a fair shake but I don't

want to see anyone put into a position where

failure is inevitable.And I personally do not like

being relegated to a "token filling the quota".

32. The power of one
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 7:07 PM/EST

Johnizen, I'm cheering for you and your

philisophy. You are a true leader. Yes! The power

of one, the power of family (extended, too) and

the power of community can be enormous. That's

what I feel. That's why I've been in social

services of one kind or another all my life. I

can't always see the results, but I just keep

planting seeds and hoping that if others keep

planting them too, good things will come.

Political change has a place too, sounds like Ben

is doing a lot of this. I'm less comfortable in

that world, but I'm glad coalitions exist and I

venture in from time to time - like helping our

local school pass their school bond.

33. UC Santa Barbara - A Little Off Topic
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 7:21 PM/EST
ben

They have a really well-designed Biopsycholgoy Dept., and it's fairly new (four years?). Beautiful campus. Okay, back to serious discussion :-)

34. To Alicia: affirmitave action-"Whew,part-1&part2"
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 7:37 PM/EST

Alicia,I agree with you to a point.The affirmitave action that you are talking about is not what I am talking about.I am talking about those highly motivated individuals that have achieved high levels in school despite their lack of educational resources.Alicia,regardless of our own personal experiences we as a nation have to make a very serious choice.Do we continue to give highly motivated multi-cultural individuals a chance to compete and learn at the highest levels of education,or do we continue to play this game

as if there is a level playing field.Did you stop to think,as I finally had to,that some of these individuals that got low s.a.t scores went on to graduate with higher scores than those with higher s.a.t scores coming into college.Alicia,getting into college does not guarantee success in college.But some smart individual high up realizes what I had to finally realize.It is cost effective to have a well trained surgeon who can be a role model for this country and it's children.Or we can have a highly intellegent,formerly motivated drug dealer who did all the right things but had the rug pulled from under him when he needed us most,because he just happened to thrive in an enviorment that did not have up to date books with all of it's pages.

35. To Alicia: continued-affirmative action?
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 4:17 AM/EST

Alicia,another reason why I had to change my strong points of view on affirmative action,is because of this.I asked myself,what is the best way to make a decision on this question.Answer.Put white people in a similar scenario,and based on historical actions,decipher how they would react.Alicia,imagine a true playing field in this country,everybody is equal.

The new s.a.t scores are out.80% of the highest

test scores are from asian and indian students.

Do you think for one minute that white americans

are going to allow 80% of the student body

of the most prestigeous universities in this

country go to non-whites.I can already see the news reports talking about:

"THE NEW NATIONAL SECURITY RISK."

36. Response to Alicia
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 11:29 AM/EST
criamama

Alicia, your last message was wonderful! I agree 100%, only wish I could have expressed my feelings as well as you.

37. to Johnizen - 80%
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 12:25 PM/EST
ben

You describe my department exactly. This year's influx is heavily East Indian, which is actually the rule, and not the exception in medicine (and science and math, for that matter). But, women make up more than half (the young guard).

38. Affirmative Action from a white gal
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 10:42 PM/EST

I have been reading the posts on this with

interest because I have mixed feelings about

affirmative action. I agree that the field needs

to be leveled to counteract prejudice, but I'd

like to see some checks and balances. Straight

quotas seem unfair. There must be more creative

ways to solve the problem, though I don't have the

answers. Affirmative Action should, ideally,

create opportunity while still maintaining some

guidelines for accountability.

Just a note on SATs - I find them of questionable

value as an indicator of how well anyone will do

in college. I'd rather see colleges and

universities go towards a portfolio process - more

work, but a more accurate picture of the person

and a better indicator of success.

39. To bbc: affirmative action,we need a better solution.
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 1:39 AM/EST

bbc,I too have mixed feelings about affirmative

action as the only solution.bbc I am what they

call a "TREKIE"(someone who watches star trek

and who reads science fiction).I long for the day

when we have a universal university system,where

everyone uses the same advanced textbooks,everyone

has their own school laptops,and most important,

everyone has to pass the same tests from grades

1 through 18.(MASTERS DEGREE LEVEL IS MANDATORY).

Computers and the internet can be the level playing field that we all dream about.Imagine

having access to 24 hours a day 7 d.a.wk tutors

on every subject without prejudice,with correct

information.Motivated Humans could reach the 18

levels of education at their own pace.All testing

will be done in a centralized area and monitored

for fairness.NO RACE,NO CLASS,NO GENDER,

JUST MIND AND MOTIVATION.I can't wait.

By the way,the first thing that should be taught

is HUMAN WORLD HISTORY.If everyone is taught the

entire history of the world from the beginning,

starting with Ethiopia,Egypt(KHEMET),GREECE,etc.

and leave nothing out,(good or bad),you will have

a truely educated human being.We will also realize

how far we really have come.Maybe it will add a

little more respect for where we need to go.

40. Another visionary
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 11:22 AM/EST

Alright, I'm also a big Star Trek fan, though I

wouldn't approach Trekie status. FYI I far prefer

Picard to the other captains...

All this discussion has given me a here and now

vision. Ben got me thinking about what I can do

in my own community. One thing that bothers me is

just how non-diverse our community is. We do have

some Native American kids in our school and a

number of white families have adopted children of

color, but it's pretty white.

What do you think of this idea? Make some

alliances with some churches or organizations in

the city - we're rural. Start up a summer camp

program that has storytelling, art, music, food,

discussion groups all having to do with different

cultural heritages. Get grants to start it up and

invite our local kids and the city kids to come

together for a week of sharing about

diversity.(Grandiose I know, but brainstorming has

to start somewhere.)

I'm going to post this on as a new topic too to

see if anyone else who may not be reading this

thread has some good ideas to share.

41. Are education and economicx the key?
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 8:47 AM/EST

This is my first venture into the relationship group. I joined on the last night of the series and am just now getting to read and post. I'm from a traditionally "mixed" fmaily. My father's white cousins interacted with us, as had their father with my grandfather. I have a granddaughter whose mother's parents came from Dublin. My concerns for her are strong.

As to the education/economics factor I have a theory that's floated in my mind since the 1960's. I once taught in Chicago. There was talk about the un-involved attitudes of black students, especially males. I noticed certain things and concluded-felt that the curriculum offered these kids made no connection with their realities AND they intuitively "knew" the content and principles were essentially meaningless to their deep existence, leading to another form of slavery. I mean regarding the grand scheme of life. This sounds weird I am sure and I only voiced it to a few other teachers during that time. I have interests in futurist studies, new science and metaphysics.The path society is on, materialism and greed, is,I think, ultimately a dead end. In some way I sensed that awareness in the eyes of many students. We're at the mercy of corporate minds. I may seem off-base, but my instincts/intuitiveness may have some validity.

My family has been relativly "well-off" for several generations, so I had no economic self-identification with my less "well-off" students. My "sensing" was based on knowing the "crap" we asked students to master and my human link to their personal experiences and, I'll say, souls. The school had Asian, Hispanic, Afr-American and a handful of Europeans. Students in all groups were in the "good student" group, but more Asians than others. Does anyone identify with any of this?