Topic #16. Are education and economics the key?
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1. Are education and economics the key?
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 4:53 PM/EST
It occurs to me as I read the messages, that we
all seem educated AND tolerant AND probably middle
class (we all can afford to own a computer and get
on the web..).
If racial prejudice is really a result of fear and
ignorance of those who are different, does having
enough money to comfortably survive help take care
of the fear, while education (not just the "three
Rs", but social experience) helps take care of the
ignorance....
What do you think and what does this suggest about
the solutions to the problem?
2. response to bbc
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 5:38 PM/EST
shelli
bbc –
Perhaps you are right. I know of plenty of non-tolerant people who are very well off financially, but they lack the "social experience" – perhaps never venturing out of their social circle.
At the same time, my husband’s grandmother, who has lived in poverty most of her life, has taught me more in the 10 years I have known her about tolerance and respect of other people through her actions and the way she treats others.
Solutions? People have to be willing to get out of their social circle to learn about others. Will it/does it happen… ?
3. Sad Facts re: Education
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 6:15 PM/EST
bleyequeen
I work at an elementary school in the Midwest. It seems that no matter what interventions we try to bring our black males up academically, their test scores on nationally normed tests are still lowest, with their female counterparts scoring just slightly higher. This is not unique to our school, but rather it is the rule throughout the district and nationwide on every level from elementary on up.
Another interesting statistic to examine is the SES, or socio-economic status. As a whole, the group of students on free, government subsidized school food programs score lowest on these same tests, with those on a reduced price meal plan scoring slightly higher, but still notably lower than those who pay full price for their meals. This is true regardless of race.
Other research shows that the educational level of the mother has a bearing on the academic success of the children.
I am interested in hearing your thoughts and welcome any comments you might have.
4. On education
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 7:43 PM/EST
Germany was one of the most advanced, civilized, educated societies in Europe before WWI. The rest is history.
Could it be that no matter how open-minded we try to be, how much we expose ourselves to different cultures, we are still only an economic disaster away? If I need to step on someone to get my daily bread, will it be easier for me to step on someone I don't identify with? Meanwhile, the longest peace time boom continues humming along. We may yet find the answer within our lifetimes. Nothing alarms me more than to hear friends say "We are too open-minded, it will never happen in this country."
5. Forms
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 11:10 PM/EST
bleyequeen
My earlier post made me think of something that really irritates me. Do you ever get asked on forms to mark which race you or your children are and find that there is not one that will suffice. My husband marks several of the choices for himself and we both mark several for our children. Of course I know they probably almost always get counted as black, which is fine with us, but I guess marking everything that applies is our way of saying we don't agree.
6. Education and test scores
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 1:19 PM/EST
To: Bleyequeen
Yes - I am aware that National test scores are
lower for black students. It is worth thinking
about the reasons - I suspect reason #1 is poverty
and the violence and lack of social support that
often
goes with it. If kids are spending all their
energy on survival, it's not surprising they
aren't doing well on tests. Besides, tests are
often ethnically biased.
I am in a graduate program studying to be a
guidance counselor. One of the big trends these
days are studies on resiliency. One of the
factors relating to student's success
seems to be having at least one adult person in
their lives who is seen by the student as a
mentor, someone who believes in them. I find this
hopeful, one person can make a difference.
Since you are actually working with these
students, what do you think are the reasons for
the test scores? Do you think helping them do well
educationally would help build racial
understanding?
7. to shelli and kilimanjaro:
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 2:00 PM/EST
Shelli - Thank goodness for your husband's
grandmother. People like her make a huge
difference in the world. One of the gifts of
suffering, can be compassion. My own grandmother
lived through the depression and shared the little
the family had with those in need. I am grateful
that these grandmoms and others keep spreading
love.
And for Kilimanjaro - Yes, compassion is not the
automatic impulse. I do think human nature leads
people to protect themselves and those who they
feel are part of their "clan", when there is
economic hardship. The US doesn't have a monopoly
on ethnic problems that are linked to economics.
My husband has relatives in Holland where this is
unrest about immigrants from Turkey and in I
recall reading about serious problems in Italy
where immigrants are seen as taking jobs. It
doesn't seem to take much to spark hatred when it
affects people's livelihoods and there is an
easily identified "other".
I am hopeful that compassion and understanding
will keep us moving in the right direction
8. to shelli and kilimanjaro:
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 2:01 PM/EST
Shelli - Thank goodness for your husband's
grandmother. People like her make a huge
difference in the world. One of the gifts of
suffering, can be compassion. My own grandmother
lived through the depression and shared the little
the family had with those in need. I am grateful
that these grandmoms and others keep spreading
love.
And for Kilimanjaro - Yes, compassion is not the
automatic impulse. I do think human nature leads
people to protect themselves and those who they
feel are part of their "clan", when there is
economic hardship. The US doesn't have a monopoly
on ethnic problems that are linked to economics.
My husband has relatives in Holland where this is
unrest about immigrants from Turkey and in I
recall reading about serious problems in Italy
where immigrants are seen as taking jobs. It
doesn't seem to take much to spark hatred when it
affects people's livelihoods and there is an
easily identified "other"
9. Education/Tests
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 10:06 PM/EST
bleyequeen
To BBC:
Literacy is the key and it seems that it all comes down to lack of exposure regardless of ethnicity or SES. Children who are not talked to, read to, provided with reading materials, etc...just simply do not do as well those who are. Much happens developmentally to prepare children to read before they ever reach school age and parental involvment in education is crucial from the very beginning.
I don't know how much helping black students or any other ethnicity succeed educationally would improve racial understanding, but it sure can't hurt. It is wise to be aware of the statistics and it's time that we stop side stepping the issue where parents are concerned. Some things in life are hard to hear, but I believe it's time for parents to hear the facts in regard to their children's behavior and academic perfomance.
How can we expect a change unless we are willing to tell parents the truth and then help them to help their children?
10. Education/Economics - Enough?
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 11:00 PM/EST
ben
I think it depends on how you approach the question. In my opinion, no matter how much you try to educate a population that hitherto has made concessions only through the force of legislation, you may just be spinning your wheels. It may not be ignorance alone, or at all. I agree with Derrick Bell's assessment in his "Faces at the Bottom of the Well" (here he quotes Jennifer Hochschild from her "The New American Dilemma"; Derrick Bell is former Weld Professor of Law at Harvard, now at NYU Law School) " 'that racism is not simply an excrescence on a fundamentally healthy liberal democratic body, but is part of what shapes and energizes the body.' Under this view, 'liberal democracy and racism in the United States are historically, even inherently, reinforcing; American society as we know it exists only because of its foundation in racially based slavery, and it thrives only because racial discrimination continues. The apparent anomaly is an actual symbiosis.' " So, in my view, racism is not something to be eradicated; it is of the fabric of this nation. (cont'd)
11. Education/Economics - Enough?
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 11:03 PM/EST
ben
And by racism, let me be clear that I use it in its academic sense, the only definition I can see holding as valid in a discussion like this, where only those in power, who determine the course of the economy, social constraints/freedoms, etc., i.e. whites, can be racist. Alternative words like racialism, prejudice, discrimination should otherwise be applied when speaking of anybody else (if we can't agree on language, how can we communicate effectively?). This doesn't mean all whites are racists; just means only whites can be racist, according to the definition I choose to use. I'm sure others will protest, but then our definitions will differ. Hate to be wordy, but I see a lot of us talking past each other. Sorry to sound so grim, but currently, this is how I approach the condition of African Americans and the future of the group. At least you know where I'm coming from. (cont'd)
12. Education/Economics - Enough?
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 11:07 PM/EST
ben
Anyway, for my part, I concentrate on education (myself, family, and community), and financial stability, because these are at least essential, although not sufficient, aspects of life needed to survive and thrive in the society we live in. I can't really comment on other "minority" groups and how they will be and are now affected by racism; in fact, how this all plays out for the future of the country is well beyond my precognitive powers. But in my estimate (and it is my hope against belief), that for this country to eventually see something like a racism-free society, it will be through the efforts mainly of the minority groups together working on the problem. I don't see whites substantially contributing to the effort; a small cadre of liberal thinkers, maybe, but not the great mass; racism benefits them far too much. Once again, Derrick Bell: "Crucial to the this situation is the unstated understanding by the mass of whites that they will accept large disparities in economic opportunity in respect to other whites as long as they have a priority over blacks and other people of color for access to the few opportunities available." Of course, I hope I'm wrong.
13. To ben:
Sat, Sep 25, 1999 - 9:47 PM/EST
You seem to be saying that whites can't have a
voice in helping change racism in this country.
Unless whites do become a positive voice and join
in the effort, how will a solution that benefits
all groups be reached? It doesn't have to be an us
against them mentality. In my view, shifting from
"us against them" to "us together" is essential to
the solution. There may be benefits to whites to
allowing racism to continue, but there are
far greater human benefits for whites by reaching
out, dealing with racism and becoming part of the
solution. It benefits all races to work together
and learn from one another.
14. to bbc
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 1:52 AM/EST
ben
No. Not can't have, but don't have. It won't be the initiative of whites which ultimately pushes this nation toward some sort of equitable "solution," if such a thing is ever resolved (remember, IMHO). Rather, as usu., it will be a choice of crises: Either there is capitulation under pressure (as in the 60's under threat of complete social unrest in the cities and a police action abroad, not to mention the eyes of trading partners beaded on the trouble), or some truly radical and reckless response ala Nazi Germany (never say it can't happen here). The human benefits you allude to are not often shared unless as a response to some threat. If you can find a historical case in this country where this is not true, I'd be grateful, and might then begin to feel some hope for the Great Eventual Conciliation. And it's always been a them against an us in this country; whites vs. Native Americans, whites vs. African slaves (and their freedom), whites vs. the Chinese (esp. on issues of employment re:displacing the white male worker), white men vs. the suffrage movement, white robber barons (and for some time, the courts) against the worker and unions, whites against returning Black servicemen (lynching), whites against school desegregation, whites with Jim Crow, whites dismantling the gains of the Civil Rights Movement with alarming alacrity, esp. almost all aspects of Affirmative Action (an ongoing process), etc. (cont'd)
15. to bbc
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 1:55 AM/EST
ben
Yes, there was indeed a small, committed group of whites who fought alongside the group(s) in question in this nation after identifying their cause(s) as a righteous cause (the cadre I mentioned), but only after significant suffering on the part of the oppressed group, and without the same (by far) at stake. I'm often puzzled at what seems to be ahistorical considerations of the future when speaking of the future of racism in this country. There are patterns in history that of course bear on the present and the future. I ask you this: If the idea, self-evident, that all races working together benefits all, why has this notion never flowered here, in the US, this liberal democracy we call great? When, then, will there come the grand epiphany, when we all conclude that yes, finally, it's time to join hands and nation build in a truly egalitarian fashion? I mean, the idea has to come from somewhere to begin this change, and logically, should it not originate with those for whom there is the most to gain and the least to lose, relatively speaking? So, I reiterate, the critical mass will be of POC. Whites may join in some action in a small number, as in the past, but only after the situation has reached (or passed) the crisis stage. Every mass movement in this nation concerning POC points to this eventuality. Whence the hope for some alternative mass enlightenment? Sorry for the diatribe, but I get agitated when I'm confronted with this pie-in-the-sky societal forecasting. Where does it come from? And again, I hope I'm wrong. (BTW, those are real questions. Please enlighten this doubter).
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