Topic #11. Narrowmindedness within your family--how do you deal with it....
(Showing 16-30 of 38)

16. For Kusuf: cont'd
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 12:03 PM/EST
jacqueline

I say that understanding that there are many, many, people who sacrificed their personal peace to intergrate colleges, neighborhoods, workplaces, etc. I understand that I am benefitting from their courage to do something that I am unwilling to do. I am not ashamed to say that such is not my calling. I have many talents that I have offered to the struggle. John Milton said, "they also serve who stand and wait." In modern colloquy, I take it to mean that there are many ways to be a part of the solution. Your way is not my way. Despite that, I believe that we both can be effective.

Some wisdom is quiet.

17. kusuf...
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 12:12 PM/EST

I can't imagine anyone in my family that I still have the pleasure of knowing, making comments of this kind. ie, the comment about a viscectomy. I would never tolerate that remark or any remark of that nature, and would never be willing to compromise myself or my family in that way. By my family, I mean my husband and daughter--they are the people I live with, and they are the people closest to my heart.

I think I have repeatedly stated that I believe that what lies at the heart of my family's 'beliefs' is their ignorance and their steeping in old way Southern Baptist values...That they haven't had the honor of knowing many outside their race. I have always thought that the only way to fight ignorance is with education. I sincerely believe my family is a loving and accepting one, that they sometimes make comments out of misunderstanding and lack of knowledge I can put up with..

you say this starts and ends in the family?

I believe that without my family's (and my husband's, who's mother has been a big part of our life since we moved to Seattle, and who I love dearly, though she also makes racially motivated comments out of her 'old school' beliefs) support, despite their failings, life would be a lot harder for my husband and I. We have enough to think about having to face the outside world..if we had to face that without the support of our families, it would be a lot harder. I think I should have been clearer in saying that my family has come around a lot, and that for the most part they are supportive of our relationship, and maybe that way, I would not be reexplaining myself at this juncture. Maybe I should have titled this topic, facing ignorance in your family, instead of narrowmindedness, because that's what I believe it is.

Bethanie

18. Jacqueline...
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 12:28 PM/EST

I took up your husband's point of view when we moved to Michigan and for the first time faced all out discrimination from all areas. It was really the first time in my life too that I had faced it, and I tended to take up a reactionary stance. But I quite agree with you. I will never make my household the barracks of a race war. I really believe that is just too much responsibility to put on any one couple. And that's what I was talking about with the 'failings' of interracial marriages. This is not to say I 'tolerate' racism, but just that I have a different way of dealing with it.

Kusuf, we live in Seattle as well, and last fourth of July, my husband went to pick up our car from the mechanic, he was supposed to meet the mechanic there. Well, my husband didn't come home. After six hours of being frantic with worry, he finally showed up at the door, looking more devastated than I've ever seen him. He had been 'detained' by the police for waiting for the mechanic. In the end he was able to talk his way out of being arrested, but my biggest fear is that the day might come when he won't be able to do so, and so I always advise him to 'remain calm' in such instances..not because I believe he owes it to anyone, or that it doesn't make me angry as hell, but because I don't want to lose him. So I agree with Jacqueline, that I will always go the 'peaceful' route of dealing with situations, because I'm trying to hold my family together. And I think that is what most women try to do--call me sexist, but that is none the less, my belief.

19. REPLY
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 1:05 PM/EST
smoothtap

AsI sit here and read these postings and I have to ask, are we here to convince everyone that our way is right or are we attempting to share experiences and gain an understanding? Life is what we are exposed to everyday, not what we would like it to be if it were a perfect world. In our attempt to show the world that blacks come from all different backgrounds we keep describing lower class blacks negatively. Just because a person chooses to stay in the hood and use slang doesn't make him/her bad. That's just one of the many facets of our culture. The only reason why it’s a big issue among some blacks is because it is the majority lives it and upper class blacks are trying to overcome the stigma. I think that’s is a good thing. But in the process please don't make other people look bad for not choosing the same direction.

20. "I gave my family members many opportunities..."
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 12:10 PM/EST

I think there is a pretty common gender gap. Whatever is natural and cultural, men are often more aggressive but we now live in an age when agility of mind counts far more - and men can learn this too.

Kusuf said something very scary to my ears:

> I gave my family members many opportunities, by

> speaking in depth with them, to amend their views

> but when, in the end, they didn't, and did not

> renounce harsh views of minorities and the

> underprivileged (which ironically my brothers and

> I are among but my mother will not acknowledge),

> I wrote them off as a great danger to themselves

> and others and thought 'If this is the path they

> want to take, then let them take it.'

,,, is what he said.

Kusuf is acting as judge and jury and he isn't so far from executioner?

Kusuf - by ignoring the progress in dealing with racism this country has had you run many risks - like equating the means of yesterday, civil war, with today, non-violent protest or even dialogue. Look at the progression - revolutions of confederated states... civil war... ending slavery and suffrage movement... civil rights.... Have any of these been enough? No. But do they build on eachother? Absolutely! Certainly we need to bring this transformation home. But home cannot be a place of war and violence. Purity of heart, chastity of soul and freedom of spirit i think are the things we have to learn in this age. Tolerance is not enough and tolerance has no place in a family.

21. Some Things Never Change
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 10:58 PM/EST

My parents live 350 miles from me and have for most of my adult life. I keep in touch with them but have learned over the years that there are certain topics about which they just don't want to know. For example, I am a recovering alcoholic, sober now over ten years. This is the singlemost important accomplishment of my life to date as everything I am today, I am because I am sober. However, as they chose to turn their heads and ignore my drinking, they find my sobriety to be an equally distasteful subject.

When I started seeing my fiance, I mentioned him to them in conversation but did not disclose his race...didn't know where this was going and could see no point in "getting them started". However, when finally my mother asked me directly "What does he look like", I told her. First came the silence, then the big sigh and finally the "Oh Donna." She began relating to my sister's experience 20 years ago and how it disrupted the family (I had a rich uncle who disowned my sister when she married a black man). I couldn't believe it, yet was not surprised.

When I told them that we were serious and that we were planning on being married (no date set, right now the committment is enough for us both!!) she really reacted. The thing is, I am not a child nor at the age of fifty will I be having any so what is the problem???? SHe simply will not acknowledge that her ideas are racist in nature, simply that there will be trouble because we "come from different backgrounds."

So, this doesn't stop. The reaction is the same. They are still afraid of "what the neighbors will think." They are older and I don't want them unduly stressed about me, but I still want to share the good stuff with them. It bothers me but I have come to accept their attitudes as their attitudes.

Donna Lou

22. Donna Lou...
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - /EST

Same here. Some things my family just doesn't want to discuss. They realized a long time ago I think, that my opinions and views were wildly different from theirs, and I think decided at that time that they would just not talk about certain issues with me. Race is one of these issues. While they have learned to accept my husband into their home, and even to love him..and they cherish the time they have with our daughter...they will simply not be bothered to discuss the racism that still is present in our extended family units, in a way that might help the visiting situations that my daughter and I have to go into two to three times a year. I don't think it's that they don't care, or that they want to see us uncomfortable when we do visit, I think it's just that they have trouble discussing things that have in past generations, been 'off-limits.' Your alcoholism is a case in point...I think probably your parents are in much the same situation. Sometimes older people still see the world as it was twenty years ago..they don't see enough of it to see that attitudes DO and HAVE changed. So the topics of conversation that made them uncomfortable twenty years ago still do. Alcoholism for instance, was something that was by and large ignored just scant years ago. People just pretended their spouses, parents and children didn't have a problem..same with the race issue, it was simply not polite dinner conversation. Now everything's fair game, and I think the old simply have trouble changing with the times...

What are your thoughts on this...

Bethanie

23. Bethanie
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 11:55 AM/EST

I definitely agree. My parents are in their 70's and when they were youg, people didn't date across religious lines to a point where Baptists didn't date Methodists...that hard a line. My grandmother, who was raised a Catholic, met and married a Swedish Lutheran immigrant in 1919 at the age of 20. Not only that, but he rode a motorcycle!!! The family was horrified and tried in vain to annul the marriage and "talk her back into her senses" (her words). She was stubborn, though and they were married for 45 years when he died. It is strange that when my sister married interracially in 1979, my grandmother was not real supportive. I tried to talk to her and show here this similarities between her choices and my sister's but she never did see them. She has been dead now nearly 20 years so I don't have to deal with her reaction.

Getting involved in this relationship has brought me great joy. If I had avoided this, I would have missed out on so much (including this forum) and I would have been the loser. My parents cannot see that. They say they want me to be happy but when I tell them that I am, that doesn't seem to work. I am 50 years old after all and no longer need their approval (if I ever did). I cannot change another person's opinions or ideas. I can only change the way I react to them. I can be an example, however and help others to understand about these issues.

People who have never been in an IR relationship do not understand that, for the most part, race is a non-issue. We work, play, love, cry etc. etc. just like every other couple. As Bill put it, our main difference is that I am a woman, my love is a male (also a Scorpio vs. my Taurus which makes for an interesting mix!!!) If our difference were simply eye or hair color, would it be an issue??? No, that is how we deal with race at home. Once in a while the outside world intrudes, but not often.

Donna Lou

24. Donna Lou..
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 1:00 PM/EST

I couldn't agree more with everything you said here. I am currently in the most normal, grounded and loveing relationship I have ever been in--that it is with someone outside my race, is to me a non-issue. I also believe in setting an example for family members who made need some 'help' getting it. I truely believe the example I have set for loving my husband and daughter, and the way they love me, has changed the lives of my family members for ever. When I visit my family in Mississippi with my daughter (still too poor for the three of us to make this trip together), they see me being a good mother to her, and puting her first and they know she is the light of my life. This has done more for them than all of my preaching at them ever could. Every time I visit, Aunts and Uncles are more excepting, so I know I am making a difference. Anyway, just wanted to thank you for sharing your opinion and let you know I understand where you're coming from.

B

25. dynamic converssation
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - /EST
Lauren

I think that this is one of this group's best converssations. I appreciate Bethanie's and Jacqueline's comprehensiveness and processing while they're respecting their families and their choices. My spouse isn't black, so I haven't had to deal with the virulence they have, but my mother's family was pretty thrown off by my marriage choice.

At first, my immigrant Irish grandmother tried to talk John into marrying a "nice Oriental girl" and my mother had some pretty hateful comments to make. While I kept some relationship with my grandmother, who was over 90 at the time and is now dead, I never took my kids to see her directly because of her racism. It's ironic that the struggling, discriminated-against immigrant was the most outspoken about my relationship (of course, not to my face). But why would I ever expose my kids or myself to that kind of hurtfulness from someone so important? The other family members I wrote off completely, unless they werre willing to come around to respect for our family, and my husband. It was comparatively easy, though, because the family I am closest to is my dad's, which never expressed any problem with it.

Having interracial grandkids has turned my dad from a really ignorant suburban white guy, who taught me songs as a child that I didn't even know were racist until he told me not to sing them in front of black people, to someone who is really aware now that these problems exist and advocates for more equality, albeit in a pretty clumsy way. I do think that it's a lot of progress on his part.

Finally, I thinkk that the depiction of Kusuf as a warrior is excellent. I am really glad that there are people outthere like him who are so vigilant and confrontational about these issues. Sometimes we need people like him to push things to the next level.

26. con't
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - /EST
Lauren

Bethanie, I want to tell you that I totally sympathize with what you and your husband went through when he was detained by the police. Through my husband, I've learned how racist many police forces are and how at risk most non-white Americans feel around them.

Because he is a lawyer and bilingual, he gets calls from other Korean Americans who have police problems. In one case, a policeman stole from a merchant and then beat up the merchant for confronting him about it (okay, for jumping on his car trying to get the good back). In another case, a man was stopped without cause and beaten for no reason at all. White people really don't believe that this happens, or that it is based on race. It does, and it is.

It is a totally different experience than a white suburban woman would have, but this is something that I never knew. I think that people like Kusuf get out there and agitate to bring this sort of thing to people's consciousness, even when they're not going willingly into this parallel universe, as we are.

27. harrassment by the police - Lauren and Bethanie
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 9:48 AM/EST

I think this could be another topic. But I know exactly what you mean about police harrassment. I get worried whenever Mike is coming home later than usual, wondering if he got stopped by the police.

We had a very controversial incident occur here in Pittsburgh a few years ago when a black man was driving a jaguar late at night. He was stopped by cops, who later said he was driving erratically. They pulled him out of the car because they thought he had a gun, then threw him to the ground and choked him to death. It was ruled accidental, though one police officer involved in the incident, was later brought to trial for abusing his girlfriend.

There is no way anyone can convince me that cops are not some of the most racist people in our society. And these are the people we expect to protect us, people we are supposed to trust.

Being a white woman, I never had to confront this issue. But now that I am married to a black man, I am a lot more aware of this problem. I really feel for anyone who has had to live through police harrassment.

Sorry to have gone off on a tangent, but this topic really sets me off.

28. susanv
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 11:15 AM/EST

Although I can understand where you're coming from, I have to take exception with your comment that cops are "some of the most racist people in our society."

That's a really broad brush you're painting with... I have a ton of family and friends in law enforcement at the federal, state and local level and none of them are racist. And I know you're not trying to say that *all* cops are racist, but even so...

Sure there are racist cops out there, most definitely. There are also racist dentists, accountants, gas station attendants, corporate executives, factory workers, etc. I don't think that cops are "more" racist than anyone else. They just have the power to express it in a way that's different from most others.

For example, my husband and I are driving, a racist cop sees us, doesn't like the black/white thing and pulls us over and harasses us. Does that make him more racist than say, three other people that saw us that day and thought "n***** lover" or something of the sort? Nope, he's just the only one with a badge, a squad car, mars lights, and the power to pull us over.

I've gotten crappy service and attitude from waitresses when I'm with my husband that I know I wouldn't have gotten were I by myself. Does that mean that waitresses are some of the most racist people in society? Nope, some waitresses are racist, some aren't.

In the same way, I don't think it's fair to say "cops" are racist. I think it's like any other group in society, there are some that are, and some that aren't. They are not robots, they all come to the job with their own personal biases and prejudices, just like anyone else. But the cops that are racist have more power to express it than your average citizen. And those that do are abusing that power.

29. Have to agree with Melissa here...
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 12:02 PM/EST

I agree that all cops are not racist. And I think it's a very good point Melissa has made about police having more power to express their racist tendencies than your average Joe (or Judy). Of course, this does nothing to help the fact that my husband has been detained by the police at least once a year since I have known him. The reason he hasn't been arrested and held I think is because this is a man who could possibly talk himself out of ANY situation. I have always felt he'd make a wonderful diplomat. But that's off the point. The last incedent, last fourth of July, really made me think about his ability to 'talk.' The fact is, he is eloquent and fairly well educated. What about the black men who aren't? What about your average good citizen, who isn't a criminal, but does not have my husband's talent for 'code switching' (a term that I first heard used on this site)? I'm not interested in talking about how all cops are racist, though I do appreciate Lauren's comments--and btw, WELCOME LAUREN!! So glad you made it to our group!!!!--I'm more interested in talking about what we all go through, or see our mates go through at the hands of those who are. You're right Susan, this should be another topic.

"they're not going willingly into this parallel universe, as we are."--great comment Lauren.

30. "all cops are racist"
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 2:48 PM/EST
ethie'sgirl

I agree that it isn't fair to categorize all cops based on the behavior of some. It's hard *not* to, sometimes, however. When I lived upstate -- where there were about ten black people total in my neck of the woods, I never really thought about cops. They were a completely benevolent presence in my life. One officer was even a substitute history teacher in my high school and seemed much more teddy bear-ish than menacing, to be sure. When my family moved to Connecticut, my feelings about police officers changed almost completely. I was often stopped on the street and asked to show ID or to explain what I was doing there. I took a BIG chance every time this happened by not complying, but simply turning my back and continuing to walk. I was followed home by patrol cars so many times, I felt like I had a regular security escort! When I moved to New York City, I found many more police officers who treated me badly. I am a big woman -- nearly 6 feet tall and no skinny-minnie -- and people often try to tell me that that is what cops (and others) react to. But I don't hear about big white women having cop trouble. All of this is just a long-winded way of agreeing with Bethanie and Melissa: yes, some cops are racist, but I have to believe that not all cops are. I say "have to" because that's the way I feel. If I really believe all cops are racists, what does that do to my sense of security, to my ability to go about my life calmly?