Topic #10. Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender mixed race relationships
(Showing 48-62 of 84)

48. For Gwendolyn
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 5:57 PM/EST

Okay, I forgot to bring this up last night...and it isn't on the subject exactly of what we're discussing right now. But this discussion with you has been very rewarding for me, and I like that we have listened to each other as much as talked...that said...

Now, I read you were fifty six. Is that right? When in your life did you realize you were gay? Was it early? Was it just recently? This is going to sound awful, and PLEASE do not take this as any kind of a remark on your age...one of my closest friends in the world is 52, and both my mother and mother in law are in their fifties. I thought about this last night after I read your post. What would happen if one of these women that I know and love had this kind of realization..I mean, I'm fairly positive it would be a big deal whenever it happened. I know it isn't something that just hits you over the head, but is rather something you may feel within yourself for a long time maybe before admitting it. But I'm wondering--totally leaving it up to you if you want to share this much of yourself. When did you realize you were gay, and how did your age play into that?

49. Gwendolyn and Sebastian...
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 6:11 PM/EST

You are both right. As you well know I'm sure. It's true, I may have grown up invisible, but at the same time, I never grew up with every move made scrutinized as possible criminal activity. In one of these message strands Ethie's girl talks about this more, about all the times she was stopped by police, made to produce her ID, followed home or looked at like she was a shoplifter when shopping. We especially talked about the detainment, as I mentioned to her that my husband has been detained at least once a year since I've known him, and that I worry he may one day just not come home. She asked how many times a white person in the same postition would have been stopped, and I answered that I've never been stopped, nor even given a second glance by the police. My husband and I have had this very same discussion, as every time he comes home after this kind of harrassment, I just have to look at him in disbelief. He is a well spoken, intelligent, educated good man--that's all I have ever known him to be. And yet, when someone else looks at him, they see black. And that is all they need to see. I know it happens, I know it's a fact of life for a lot of people. And you're right Gwendolyn in saying that we need ourselves to be a part of the impetous for change.

Bethanie

50. comfort zone unity
Sat, Sep 25, 1999 - 1:09 PM/EST

I'm sorry speaking about Christianity in the black community has been such a big problem between me and some others. Division and strife really weren't my goals. I much prefer truth.

I thought i tried to avoid saying Christianity was anything like perfect but others seem to feel the need to dwell on the issue. I thought i was trying to examine the question of whether Christianity came to the slaves because of or inspite of the masters. Certainly the masters used religion, and anything else they needed, to preserve their socio-eco reality and egotistic sense of power and wealth over others.

But my approach has been to avoid throwing out the baby with the bath water. I can't understand how it can be thought that slaves would adopt the religion of their owners because of them in any way. They were whipped into submission and came to beleive what they were told? Perhaps there is some of that - but how can that lead to an authentic religious experience? It isn't owed to God and can't lead there. Are we to say that the African American religious experience was/is a farce?

I think this partly avoids another isse. The idea seems to be that anti-gay pov only came from the Bible - not previous to the slaves, not authentic to the Africans. I seriously question that. I haven't seen any information, as opposed to the idea of slaves getting Christianity because of masters, that anti-gay pov existed in Africa before Christianity.

51. steven....
Sat, Sep 25, 1999 - 7:21 PM/EST

We have moved beyond this topic in our discussion of gay issues. There are some points that some of us are just going to disagree on, from our different experiences and our different information, etc. That's okay. Your experience with Christianity is way different than mine, or some other of the people on the bulletin board. I could write a novel probably on my negative experience with Christianity, and what it has done in my life and in the lives of some of my family. But I won't. I still believe there is a God. I still go to church on a fairly regular basis. I sometimes think that arguing about religion is a completely futile prospect. I think that respecting others beliefs is key and is sometimes much more important than trying to push home your own point of view. So I'd just say it's okay to agree to disagree sometimes.

B

52. invisibility
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - /EST
ethie'sgirl

While I was reading your earlier posts, I was thinking again of what I'd said about ways in which I've been harassed by police officers, shop keepers, etc. Then I had to smile when I read your paraphrase of my comments because I had just come to a new realization -- further proof, as if we needed any, of the illogic of prejudice. All those things I said about experiencing prejudice are true, but it is *just* as true that I am also invisible. People can see me well enough when they are checking to be sure I'm not going to rob the store, or when they want to know why I'm in a certain neighborhood. At the same time, however, people can walk right into me and seem completely shocked to find me there (this has happened *many* times). How is it possible to have it both ways? As I said in another post, I am pretty tall, and as Gwendolyn said earlier, I'm full-figured. I also walk around carrying a HUGE school bag and have twisty hair that is big and flamboyant. It seems fairly unlikely that anyone could miss seeing me. And yet somehow ...

And I wanted to thank you, Bethanie and Gwendolyn, for this great conversation. I haven't added much or often, but I've really enjoyed following along. You've given me a lot to think about.

Gwendolyn, you made a comment about change beginning when *this* conversation ends and we take this dialogue outside of this group. I agree, but I also think that's going to be SLOW going. I mentioned in another thread trying to start this conversation in a group of my friends and watching them squirm. This doesn't mean I won't keep trying, of course ...

53. Noticing how I 'see' people...
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 1:42 AM/EST

This conversation has also given me a lot to think about. I had an experience a few years ago, while working retail, with a middle aged white woman that reminded me of this thread about being 'invisible' I was ringing her up, or trying to anyway, at my register, when a younger man in a business suit walked up, completely ignoring her, and not seeing her at all. He just started talking to me like she wasn't even there. I stopped him mid sentence, told him I was already with a customer if he hadn't noticed, and went back to helping the woman I was ringing up. He apologized profusely swearing up and down that he hadn't 'seen' her and got in line. She leaned forward and whispered to me that it wasn't any big deal, that she had become invisible the day she stopped dying her hair. And sad too, because she was a very attractive woman with really nice grey hair. I know this isn't the same, but this conversation has really made me think about seeing people. About what it does to a person if they are continually invisible to society. I was out at the store today and just started looking at people (not like some weirdo lady or anything, and not staring) but just looking them in the eyes as they passed. It was an interesting experience to. Nearly everyone I 'saw' smiled back at me, or had some friendly greeting to give--and I live in the city. Now I'm not naive enough to think that this little expirament is going to make a big difference in the world, but it did make me think of the perceptions I sometimes harbor of people I don't know. That if you look a certain way, you are..

cotd...

54. cotd...
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 1:51 AM/EST

This brings up something else I've given a lot of thought to. After that nasty incedent last fourth of July where my husband was held by police for several hours. When he got home and finally was able to speak about what happened. The first words that flew out of my mouth were something like, "How could anyone think you are a criminal?" I talked about how eloquent he always is, how he dresses well etc. But I had to stop myself in mid sentence and re-think those words. What if he didn't? What if he didn't speak well..what if he walked around in baggy jeans or wore his hair different? Would that make him any more criminal than he is now? Would that make him any more deserving of being stopped by police? Last year fourth really had a huge impact on me in terms of how I 'look' at young black men.

B

55. I agree with Bethanie
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 4:31 AM/EST
dory

Well, I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one that has been affected in this was. I too have become more observant of people that I see in the store or whatever. I have also been looking at people as they pass by, and have been greeted with a smile or a hello. People seem to really appreciate this from a stranger. It would be nice if everyone could pay a little more attention to how they perceive others! That old saying, "can't tell a book by it's cover" is really true. Now more than ever. I have also found myself becoming more aware of how others may perceive me. And, I wonder what they may think....

I have not been contributing a lot to this forum, but I have been reading and following along. I take this message out into the "world" with me everyday as I meet and greet people. I want to be part of the change for the future. Hopefully, I will also be able to do that through my daughter as well as myself. Thanks to all of you for helping me to do that! :o)

56. majority rule
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 11:43 AM/EST

...even in minorities.

Lot's of words about warm exchanges, or agreeing to disagree. But understanding seems to have reached it's limit, even though i am pretty sure i wasn't understood. I actually went back and detailed the entire content of this discussion subject trying to figure out what happened. I learned some from doing this.

Fine - invisibility, and judging a book by its cover. Let's just keep on going....

57. Steven...
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 7:54 PM/EST

I'm really sorry you are feeling this way. I think you are misunderstanding that there is a difference between being heard and having someone agree with your opinion. You have brought up many fine points in this discussion, and I have tried to respond to all i have seen, but at the same time, I am not always going to agree with everyone, nor are you, as your post seems to indicate. I do think discussions can continue on a positive note despite a disagreement over the details of some of our understanding. In fact, this happens in my marriage on a fairly regular basis. Neither my husband and I pack up and leave simply because we disagree on something or other, we stay and work it out and sometimes agree that we just have different opinions on certain subjects. That's just the way of things.

B

58. For Bethanie
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 12:55 PM/EST
gwendolyn

I hope you had a great weekend. Your question regarding my sexuality. You know the Gay population is according to the last figures taken, is about 10% of the US population. However, I really disagree with that low number. There are many people who are Gay and closeted, there are many Gays who are only out of the closet on the weekends and there those of us who are just out.

I have been officially out for the last 3 years, unofficially I have been out for 20 years or more. What does unofficially mean, it means that I had feeling and even loved one or two women, but fought against it because of what our US society thinks about same sex relationships. I was also afraid of what my daughter would think of her mother. There comes a point (that point was 3 years ago) in ones life when living a lie is just not acceptable. I decided that this is who I am and if my daughter or others have a problem with my sexuality than they can choose not be part of my life. I will miss them, but it's their choice. I've tried various methods of meeting women, being 56 does limit my choices in this community, however, as I get out more into the larger cities, and there are more opportunities for meeting women. The Gay community is no different from the rest of society, if you read the ads in the newspaper or the internet, everyone wants someone who is young, white, thin, college educated, driving a $$$ price car, living in the right neighborhood and making big bucks. The Gay community is effected by the same media standards that the straight community is hit with on a daily basis. From my perspective women who have been in long term relationships with women and the relationship ends, have a harder time meeting, trusting and loving again. This is also true of straight women as well. I on the other hand have had few short term relationships. So I hope this answers your question and yes age is a major factor.

Gwendolyn

59. To Dory and Bethanie
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 1:25 PM/EST
gwendolyn

On being invisible, I find that in the small community that I live and work in, its hard being invisible. I hang out after work at one of many coffee shops in town, my favorite is one that has a wide window and when I sit in the window drinking my coffee, people will walk by look at me but they don't see me. I see them and could probably describe in great detail what they are wearing, but if pressed they could not describe one thing about me except that I am Black.

A short story, I was waiting for someone over in San Jose about a week ago, I sat down on a bench out of the sun, when this woman of color about my age sat down and I notice that she kept looking at me. Finally she said, after siting and eyeing me for about 10 minutes, "you are a beautiful woman what ethnic group do you belong to." I could not speak for about 30 seconds. No one has ever asked me that before. When I recovered, I thank her for her compliment and told her that I was Black of African descent. I thought everyone in America knows what Black people look like, but this was not the case with this woman. She was a recent immigrant, live and socialized in her community, she did not work. She wanted to find out more about me as a women and I really wanted to interact with her and we did for a little while, til my friend arrived and we had to leave, but I did thank her for the compliment and wish her a good day. It was so refreshing to interact with someone who didn't have these inaccurate images of me as a Black woman of African descent, she just wanted to know more about me.

Gwendolyn

Gwendolyn

60. agreement or understanding
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 5:17 PM/EST

I haven't looked for total agreement and am quite comfortable with the idea of diverse opinions. But there hasn't been any investigation of facts to speak of - just opinions one way or another. If there is actual information you or others can share on the issue i want to know it. I am quite willing to share what i know. But instead all i hear, and am sorry if i seemed to participate in, is slammed doors.

To make matters worse i see little difference between our actions and those who we all "know" to be oppressors of diversity, including name calling. Which brings us back to the "gay-bigot" thread.

In any case one more minority to worry about is the white guy who steps into the gap and tends to get it from both sides which i certain feel in here.

61. Gwendolyn...
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 9:41 PM/EST

I'm still just amazed that you only came fully out of the closet three years ago. I too think the real percentage of gay people in America is a lot higher than they set it at.

What I'm finding interesting right at the moment, is the diversity you will always find in cities. People from everywhere flocking to the cities because in doing so they escape the scrutiny they felt living in a small town. This is why I feel so comfortable living in Seattle. But in leaving all of the small towns, we are also taking the opportunity away from the people living in them to get used to change. Not that I have a problem with this obviously, I would never think of raising my daughter where I grew up. And not that it should be anyone's responsibility to educate people who are slow to change. That responsibility is way too big for one person, or one couple, or one family to handle. I know I still face a lot of issues that are closely tied to my small town bible belt mentality. Especially living here. But I continue trying to confront those feelings and steriotypes head on...

Bethanie

62. Steven...
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 9:50 PM/EST

I don't even know what to say here. So is the orriginal question you were asking is "did the anti-gay sentiment orriginate from the Bible? Or did it come over from Africa?" Is that the question? The Africa side of the question I cannot answer, but if you'd like me to, I will find all of the anti-gay segments in the Bible that I know and post them here. I thought that your study of the Christian religion would have already lead you to discover them on your own, but I am quite willing to share the info I have.

B