Topic #4. Things have got to change
(Showing 80-94 of 109)

80. Cherokee
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 2:08 PM/EST

it is my understanding that the reason there seems to be many people of Cherokee descent is that while nearly all tribes require a rather direct link, parentage/grandparentage, in oder to be a tribal member, the Cherokee actually use a one-percent rule in allowing admission to the tribe. I can understand this, in terms of both a survival strategy, and as a way negotiating more funds from the US government.

81. Shanita
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 2:37 PM/EST
uhope

Quoth Shanita: "wherever the Spaniards (and other European colonialists) went so did their slaves."

By this statement, are you implying that Spanish conquistadors were "really black" and so were all of their offspring by nature of the fact they took slaves with them on voyages? I don't know; this seems to be a bit of a stretch. Wouldn't most of any slaves taken on a trip like this be male in order to be helpful on the ship? I didn't think women (black or white) were approved on ships. Sounds more like the ever insidious "one drop" philosphy creeping in. I'm just wondering how far back do you go to determine that someone is "denying" their African heritage. If someone's most recent black relative was 100, 200, 300 years ago, are they still black, in your opinion? And remember - in those days, not every slave was of African origin, either. Rom (Gypsies), East Indians, anybody who could be subjugated was fair game. The first slaves in the Americas were the natives. They didn't start importing Africans 'til they killed the Indians off. Which - I know - is a lot to get into here in this forum. I think all Aphrodite is trying to get you to appreciate is that when one uses the term "Latino" it is wise and respectful to consider the individual ethnicities when instructing them about their background. As stated, they are not the same anymore than all Asians - Chinese, Malay, Indian, Tibetan, etc. are the same.

Forgive me if I seemed to be missing your "very clear" points. I've tried to follow this thread carefully and I don't see where I've gotten off track. I think you were the one who started the initial topic "Things Have Got to Change". That's true on all sides. Regardless of one's research - and it was ALL written by humans with their own motives and agendas - change cannot be effected without acknowledging individual exceptions to what we thought was the "rule" and having the utmost respect for them.

82. Aphrodite - Lineage
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 3:13 PM/EST
uhope

Seems like you really started something in here, you Latina spitfire (please smile; just playin')! The "one drop" rule started by whites to deny rights and priviledges to blacks seems to now be embraced by blacks to arbitrarily include every member they can for whatever reason. It is SO uncool. No other racial group has such a philosophy. But, it's not unlike Patkelly's statement about Cherokee membership, I suppose. Your experience with the BLSA is rather ironic considering its members are supposed to be about fighting these kinds of exclusionary tactics. Sounds kinda like country club rules of old. Just goes to show - no one group corners the market on prejudice and discrimination. Unfortunately, certain groups tend to get away with it because of their history. A "right to sing the blues" as it were. It's all pretty bogus.

It wasn't too long ago that having Native American ancestry was nothing to be proud of, at least among whites. It seems to have become more fashionable since the positive portrayals of Natives in films like "Dances with Wolves". I wonder if it will ever be "fashionable" to claim African ancestry? Even among AfAms, there is a tendency to attribute every "attractive" physical feature to "Indian" or "Oriental" blood somewhere. What a day it will be when a white person proudly attributes their child's wavy hair or luscious lips to their black great-great grandmother. It could happen :-)

83. Edgewalkers
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 3:34 PM/EST
uhope

What an interesting concept! Who, here, considers themselves to be an "edgewalker"?

The description sounds very like how I see myself. The trick is being able to stand up and "be" yourself when others look at you crazy for your "different" tastes in music, clothing, speech, attitudes or call you a "sell out". I don't think any group is any better or worse than another and refuse to be pigeonholed. As a result, I enjoy - and am irritated by - everyone equally!

84. edgewalkers...
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 8:59 PM/EST
domdotcom

i read about this book in the utne reader and felt connected to it. uhope asked if anyone saw themselves as edgewalkers, my hand is up. since i was a kid, i've always connected with people on the fringe, and for many gay friends in school- i was the person they came out to. no matter where i am, i'm different and it's made me more resiliant.

as far as the cherokee thing goes...maybe people feel excited having a connection to something. being an adoptee,i didn't know what my backgound was. i knew i was bi-racial, and later found out i was part ukranian, irish and dutch. i know it sounds silly,but whenever i meet someone of any of those groups, i want to say "me too!" like i said, silly. but i didn't have a connection before five years ago. maybe SOME people feel that.

what do you guys think?

85. Domdotcom
Thu, Sep 30, 1999 - 12:12 PM/EST
uhope

I know what you mean about the desire to feel "connected". I'm not adopted, but many factors played into our family not having a real relationship with my parents' families. I couldn't identify a cousin, aunt or uncle out of any line-up. I do know all of my ethnic backgrounds (Chickasaw, not Cherokee!), but since my mom's family came over on the Mayflower, there's no "Old Country" connection there, and it's the usual situation with my father's slave ancestry. And we live over 1,000 miles from any known relatives. No casual drop-ins here. We're just plain American; no hyphens available.

I've always been envious of "ethnic" movies depicting close-knit Italian, Irish, Hispanic families - even "Soul Food", wishing for something like that for myself. Watching "The Joy Luck Club" the other day even set it off. We have no family "tradition", which is kinda sad. So I try to expose myself and my son to as much cultural influence as possible, emphasizing the bits that are part of our heritage. "Riverdance", Celtic music, "Dance Africa", jazz & blues, Debussy & French perfume ;-) "Monty Python" & "Austin Powers" (mom's predominately of English extraction). Foods. Discovery Channel documentaries about the countries our people came from. It's all great and we assess which parts move us the most. Actually, I really dig Latin music & dancing, though that doesn't represent any part of my heritage. But it's good to be well-rounded, I think.

86. uhope
Thu, Sep 30, 1999 - 11:34 PM/EST
domdotcom

thanks for the response. i think that lack of connection is one of the main that seperates people more than color. i find that people who come from a background rich with tradition and culture, can get along easier with others that share that background. they don't always get along, but if you're hanging out and there are people from different ethnic groups and music is playing, watch the group. most people who come from backgrounds where they celebrate openly, think nothing of enjoying the music. look at men of various ethnic groups when they see each other, they usually hug. some guys are so homophobic, not only will they not hug, they can't sit together in a movie theater! ha! and think of the weddings you've attended and had the most fun. it didn't matter what color anyone was, it mattered that they could be open and share in the tradition.

i'm sure introducing your son to so many things is good for him to feel more connected.

by the way, how much contact do you have with your father's side of the family?

87. Domdotcom
Fri, Oct 1, 1999 - 1:40 PM/EST
uhope

Yeah - it's ALL about culture. Background and culture determine even your friends, let alone your mates! And who you share (and DON'T share) those things with are often very different from who you might think. A person's race may not have anything to do with it. That's why it's so important to be open-minded with our associates. Frankly, I've had more fun at "white" weddings than "black". Probably since I can't dance, there's more of a tolerance for goofy spazziness at "white" weddings ;-). I can't handle the pressure! But I had a BALL at the Hispanic weddings I've gone to.

As mentioned above, we haven't had any real contact with either of our parents' families. My father is the youngest child - his next oldest sibling is 10 years older than he. He has only brothers, his mother died before I was born. His father used to live with us 'til I was 15, then he moved back to Florida and died not too long after. Unfortunately, due to physical impairment, my grandfather was unable to speak clearly enough to relay any family stories, etc. Even more unfortunately, my father is rather anti-social, even with his family, and never saw the need to maintain relationships with his family - even for his kids' sake. So the last time I saw anyone on his side (my grandfather's sister & brother), I was about 10 years old. I just met my mother's mom for the first time in 1991. She was very cool (in the good way!), but I have the feeling that the time to really cultivate close family ties is throughout youth. Otherwise, even blood kin just feel like your everyday strangers. Coupled with long distance and latent guilt feelings (on all sides), it hasn't really seemed worth it to campaign for family reunions at this stage in the game. For me, it's more important to cultivate good relations with my sister and brothers, parents and my son - my immediate family. One does what one can . . .

88. culturally estranged
Fri, Oct 1, 1999 - 5:48 PM/EST

here's another one, i know two of my grandparents immigrated, at least one other grandparent was the child of immigrant's - all Irish. so what's happens when I move to SF, a town with a very large Irish population? nothing! I don't hang with Irish folks- I quess I could but I always seem to find myself living and working around wierd artists, and and in black neihborhoods. I don't really try to understand it, it may have to do with being the second generation. the first always works so hard to assimilate that their kids are left trying to figure out just what the ancestor's culture was. I do teach my kid her 'Irishness' and the culture as I've been given it. It's been a long time since I felt comfortable in the mainstream, so I guess I too 'hang with the fringe'.

89. Uhope - Aphrodite
Sat, Oct 2, 1999 - 8:08 PM/EST
shanita

"Of African descent" is neither an opinion or a rule. It is a statement of fact. If you buy into the white suprmacist notion of the "one drop rule," then that is entirely your choice. This rule of white purity paranoia has nothing to do with the fact of being "of African descent." Aphrodite, I find the venom with which you treat the notion of being "of African descent" to be quite curious. Uhope seems to think that I am not acknowledging the fact that there are many different Latino peoples. I am surprised by that comment considering that I made that point "very clear" in even the original comment that you first found to be displeasing. I can't help but shake my head when I encounter people who say such glowing things about black people and how they have black friends etc. yet, when the idea is put forth that there could be black people in their family line, they become red-faced and fighting mad. Perhaps I shouldn't be so surprised.

90. Trail of Tears
Sun, Oct 3, 1999 - 10:14 AM/EST
shanita

By the time of the Indian Removal Act of 1830, the

Cherokee had translated the Bible into their own language and some were considered by whites to be "highly educated." I don't doubt that some of these Cherokee elite adopted many of the same attitudes, beliefs and behaviors as the colonists. This makes it not impossible that some Cherokee held slaves. Yet, there is evidence that this certainly did not characterize the Cherokee tribe as a whole. According to Cherokee oral history as well as the personal diaries of various colonists that lived at that time, the Cherokee were known for giving refuge to people of other ethnic groups. These groups were described as "Black Dutch," Spanish, Creole, and Black (perhaps meaning African without obvious mixture). Also, the Cherokee were one of the few Native American tribes that actively encouraged marriage with "non-Indians." Therefore, it is higly likely that blacks and other people of color were found walking alongside the Cherokee on the "trail of tears" primarily because they too had lost their beloved homes.

91. black indians
Mon, Oct 4, 1999 - 2:35 PM/EST

i have also learned a great lesson from the black indians of New Orleans, part of the Mardi Gras tradition and certainly related to Shanita's post. has anyoen ever witnessed this? i believe it occurs in the black neihborhoods with each one identifying themselves with an'indian' identity, complete with tribal roles, amazing headresses, songs (check the Neville Bros.), etc. this is another example of cultural cross-pollination rather than exploitation. another kind of survival mechanism, that while it doesn't seek to 'preserve' a distant older culture, it does pay respect and allow two cultures that have been historically oppressed to find a new kind of 'shared' cultural experience.

more thoughts on my 'of Irish descent' - because of a history of oppression in europe- and even in some ways by the Catholic church in Ireland- I tend to look way back to the Celtic history of ireland, the Celtic tribal cultures of northern europe being almost completely opposite what most people think of when talking of european culture. here is where i find connections that circumvent the brutal oppression by the europeans in america. I need to do this because to be honest I don't really identify as part of the 'dominant culture'. while certainly being white in america equals a kind of priviledge, my point is that there are avenues, experiences and histories that even white people can look at within their cultural experience that don't require historical dominance over other peoples.

92. black indians
Mon, Oct 4, 1999 - 2:38 PM/EST

i have also learned a great lesson from the black indians of New Orleans, part of the Mardi Gras tradition and certainly related to Shanita's post. has anyoen ever witnessed this? i believe it occurs in the black neihborhoods with each one identifying themselves with an'indian' identity, complete with tribal roles, amazing headresses, songs (check the Neville Bros.), etc. this is another example of cultural cross-pollination rather than exploitation. another kind of survival mechanism, that while it doesn't seek to 'preserve' a distant older culture, it does pay respect and allow two cultures that have been historically oppressed to find a new kind of 'shared' cultural experience.

more thoughts on my 'of Irish descent' - because of a history of oppression in europe- and even in some ways by the Catholic church in Ireland- I tend to look way back to the Celtic history of ireland, the Celtic tribal cultures of northern europe being almost completely opposite what most people think of when talking of european culture. here is where i find connections that circumvent the brutal oppression by the europeans in america. I need to do this because to be honest I don't really identify as part of the 'dominant culture'. while certainly being white in america equals a kind of priviledge, my point is that there are avenues, experiences and histories that even white people can look at within their cultural experience that don't require historical dominance over other peoples.

93. test
Mon, Oct 4, 1999 - 4:52 PM/EST
uhope

i've been trying to post all day . . . no success

94. Shanita
Mon, Oct 4, 1999 - 5:04 PM/EST
uhope

Has this been a series of misunderstandings? In regard to the "Latino students" comments; a lot of this controversy might have been quelled by mentioning the specific background of these kids. You have valid points if your students are of Puerto Rican, Cuban, Belizean, etc. heritage - heavy African ancestry. But even in those countries, it may not apply to every citizen, no more than the fact that the U.S. held slaves makes every American of African ancestry. As Aphrodite pointed out, the term "Latino" encompasses a huge diversity of peoples - like Asian - and African ancestry is simply NOT "a statement of fact" for every Latino person.

Not only white supremacists cling to the "one drop rule". It seems that more AfAms support it by claiming if you have ANY black ancestry, you are black; regardless of one's dominant ethnicities. Who else says, "You're just Black", You're trying to deny your "Blackness", and so forth, to anyone who is discovered to have a black great, great grandfather? Most white people don't even care. In fact, the strongest opponents to having a multiracial category on the census have been AfAms, with the feeling that if one is given the opportunity to accurately classify one's background, the "AfAm population" will suffer a mass decrease. I've never checked only one box on any form, so I can't say how the government classifies me. But if in the 2000 census I will be classified as "biracial" instead of one or the other, won't that finally be a true count? Regardless of the numbers?

Please don't think it's bitter denial when someone just wants to have their ethnic identity respected. I suspect Aphrodite is sensitive to folks implying they know "what she really is" when I'm sure SHE really knows - that's why your seemingly blanket usage of the term "Latino" was an issue for her. It's like a non-black person stating blanket factoids about black people; not acknowledging there are as many exceptions to rules as there are snowflakes.