Topic #9. Have you ever had to choose?
(Showing 10-25 of 40)

10. Have you ever had to choose?
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 1:44 AM/EST
smoothtap

Being black I have to choose all the time. In high school I chose between hangin out with my dawgs or being in the band. In college I had to choose between Engineering students and my boys. On the job I have to choose the way I talked around white people and black people. If I said "Yo whaz up" to white people at work than it’s considered not appropriate in corporate America and affects my pay check, however when it's just two blacks in the hall way we will say "Yo whaz up" just to remind each other that we're still black and haven't sold out. Is it right? no I don't think so but if you ask most blacks in corporate America they do the same thing if they want to work in America and still hold on to some of their black heritage. So what you have is a person that has choose in order to be successful in both cultures.

11. SmoothTap
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 2:29 AM/EST
robbie

But what about those of us who prefer not to code-switch? What about those of us who are just as comfortable saying "Hi SmoothTap. How's it going today"? What about those of us who are uncomfortable with speaking grammatically incorrect English and the thought that some outward action is necessary to indicate to others that we have not "sold out"? Can I not hold onto my heritage (all of it) without trotting out this behavior? And if I refuse to do these things, are you saying that I am not properly embracing my black culture? Why does it always seem as if there is some test that you have to pass to be seen as really black. Isn't the test really how much I do for my community? Or how closely I hug my family to me? Isn't it enough that I donate a portion of my salary and a good deal of my time to charities that address the concerns of those who have not had many opportunites (including of course black people)? Isn't it enough that the people that I love most in the world are black (My dad, mom, sister, brother, and best friend)? Why does it always come down to proving something. And one more thing, I don't need to do anything to "remind [myself] that [I] am still black". I have the happy reminder every day in the mirror.

Smoothtap, excuse me for taking part of your post out of context. But this was something that I had to get off my chest.

12. Robbie...
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 10:09 AM/EST

I know that is between you two guys, but I would have to agree with you Robbie. Being part of the "black community" has nothing to do with speaking ebonics with the homies. It is where your heart is as well as your head.

True enough, we all have to interact differently in different settins, but you don't shouldn't have to carry-on just to remind yourself or anybody else you are still black. All I have to do is just grab a mirror. Enough about that.

13. to Robbie
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 10:32 AM/EST
smoothtap

I grew up in the hood and yes these people speak in slang or what you call bad English but are they wrong to use slang? These people are very good people and they have made the choice for whatever the reason to stay where they are and live life their way. I on the other hand decided that I wanted leave and see the world but I still cherish my original roots. Unfortunately I know that if I speak in slang at the office I would be viewed like you view it, in a negative manor and I would be stereotyped. I wish it weren’t true by that’s reality and it affects my success in the workforce. If I give up slang altogether then it affects my relationship with my family and friends in the hood. They would no longer feel that I could relate with them. It is right for me to go back home and try to tell these people how to talk act and live just because I chose to leave? When I lived in Germany for 3 years I had to learn the language and accept the culture so I could socialize with Europeans. What I am really trying to say is that we all have choices and along with those choices come good and bad. So as we make these choices lets make sure we can live with them.

14. Have You Ever Had to Choose
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 12:40 PM/EST
antionette

I wonder if the feeling of having to choose has more to do with culture, which varies greatly from city to city, than race. I dated across racial lines and only a few times did I experience any reprecussions from others. None of my friends or family cared. However when I, from Los Angeles, dated and later maried a country boy from the Ozarks, it was much harder. Our life experieneces were so different, and he did not fit the mould of my professional friends. He would not live in the city, we had different ideas of culture, and very different traditions. We had a lot to overcome. More so than my previous seriuos boyfriend, A, who was black. A and I, fit in our social circle together very well. He had the same educational and religious background as I. And though we may have been different colors, much of our goals were the same. What split us up was Geography, not color.

I am not sure what draws us to each other, but we should celebrate it when it happens. I have had to choose my husband over the life track that I was on. I, however, can not imagine being happier. And those in my life that realy matter are still here with me.

15. another random thought
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 1:38 PM/EST
robbie

Wait this is not an argument. Simply my point of view.

And SmoothTap, it was never my intention to say that people who speak in slang should be dissuaded from doing so. I simply want to present the argument that if you choose to do so, don't look down on me because I choose not to. I understand the pressures that you talked about in trying to show that you are still black. I have had this issue with my own family. I don't know how many times I heard the phrase "just like a white girl". The funny thing is that this phrase was half intended to be a compliment. Because let's all be honest---Ethnic minorities, in general (there I go again) value light more than they value dark. Go to AstroIndia and look at the marriage classifieds. Notice that these parents take pains to note whether their daughter or son is "fair".

I guess my point is that refusing to code-switch should not adversely affect your relationships. You just have to let the people that you love know that being black has nothing to do with how you speak, what you wear, etc. And disallow them from saying these ignorant things.

And realize that if someone whom you don't know very well does not code-switch, they are NO LESS BLACK THAN YOU!!!!

16. To Jacqueline
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 2:12 PM/EST
kusuf

This has happened around me numerous times, and not only regarding race. I once dated a women

who had had a lesbian relationship before we met and she had some lesbian friends. There was no

doubt to me that they, along with her mother who had apparently been raped and whose husband

had had a child with another woman while they were still married, had deep-seated aggression

towards men, any men. As far as I was concerned it was like smoke in the air —unmistakeable. I

pointed this out to her, but she would not listen, and only months later did she admit that these

women had talked behind my back — and for what?

It tore us apart. She was in the ‘in crowd,’ and I wanted no part of crowds whatsoever, And the

fact is we loved each other deeply, but I would not settle for peace at any price. So I walked away

and it still bothers me some three years later.

I was forced to choose by other people's pain. I felt caged.

17. robbie
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 2:41 PM/EST
antionette

I had a thought about skin color: If some whites are trying desperatly to get that "Dark Island Tan," and the some minorities value, to a degree, the fair skin; then aren't they trying for the same thing?

I have seen many euro/americans so dark that I would not hazard to guess thier genetic makeup, just as there was a friend in college that was african/american,(both natural parents), and I did not know it until she introduced me to her family.

Just a thought, as a child I wanted to be blue, like the Hindu Gods. My son has asked if he could be, "more brown," like his best friend.

18. Color.......
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 3:11 PM/EST

I think the whole alluring topic of skin color just crazy. There is so much discrimination within the black community it is pathetic! I was told, that since my ex-wife was a twin the the jazz singer Sade, that I liked my women light....bright....damn near white! Go figure. I have also heard the myth white people (in general now)are more open to lighter-complexed blacks that the real dark ones, like me. I have never noticed it in the south, since I personally have more important things to be concerned with now. Do you guys have any comment on this?

19. robbie
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 3:31 PM/EST
smoothtap

I agree, no one should look down on anyone based on the way they walk or talk. I am very glad that you are being frank and I am not taking it as an argument. What you are saying is the way things should be but they are not. We still live in a world where people judge you based on your differences and not on your similarities. I try to judge others on the way they treat me and not their talk or walk. I don’t believe everyone has to code–switch. It’s a choice you make depending on your comfort level.

I would like to ask you if you think we all code-switch to some degree in life. I mean do you talk the same way to your good friends as you do your parents or boss?

I’m not trying to disagree with you I am just trying to understand your point of view, which I hold as valid.

21. for sebastian and antionette ... and then for smoothtap
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 3:50 PM/EST
ethie'sgirl

If I have to categorize my color, I'll say that I have medium-dark skin, somewhere between milk chocolate and dark. I have been told that I am "too dark" to date (several men) and that I am "too light." I don't care if a man continually falls for women of a certain skin color. Maybe he really loves those particular women (this goes for women who show a preference, too, of course). What I have sensed from men who have felt the need to criticize my light or darkness is that they aren't really interested in *me* at all, that they are paying far too much attention to my shade of brown. And this is really problematic, whether they are black or white.

Sorry to horn in or your comments to/with Robbie, Smoothtap, but here I go ... I don't think that I code-switch at all. I've been trying to think of myself in all different situations. The only thing I've realized is that I swear a lot more when I'm with my friends, but that's hardly the same thing ... and I turn that off when I'm around my mother or grandmother just as quickly as I do when I'm in front of a class or with my boss... My background is very different from yours (lower-middle-class, white, semi-rural town) but I've lived almost ten years now in areas that are predominantly black and latino and I've never felt that I needed to adopt a new way of talking to fit in or connect. Am I making sense?

22. ethie'sgirl
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:24 PM/EST
smoothtap

Yes, it does make sense but they don't have the power to promote you or hold you back on something you have worked you whole life on. If had come from a non-slang neighborhood and moved to a neighbor hood where slang was predomant, I would not code-switch because these people would not be able limit my ability to succeed in life.

23. Code-switching. . . we probably all do it. . . but not in the same way [1]
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:28 PM/EST
robbie

Re SmoothTap's question

In answer to your question, no, I do not speak the same way to everyone. I don't work so I don't have a boss, but I understand what you are saying. It's funny that you should ask me this. I was contemplating just this earlier today. I concluded that the way that I speak to my parents is different than how I speak to my parents. But the difference is not grammatical. The difference is that I filter for my parents. My dad would have a small conniption if I cursed around him or my mom---As well he should. But regardless of what I choose to call it, the crux of the matter is that yes, I do agree that a person chooses the most appropriate manner in which to communicate with each individual. My problem is that again, I am not comfortable with slang and such. My refusal to code-switch extends to the way that I treat everyone. I feel that everyone is equal. I am no more solicitous of my professors than I am of my fellow students. I treat everyone in the same deferential manner. And I expect the same. The only exceptions, of course being my parents, grandmother and aunts and uncles, etc. I, of course, let them run all over me. : )

And another thing, what do you mean when you say that code-switching is the result of a certain "comfort level"? I am assuming that you mean that when a black person is comfortable with his or her "blackness" that code-switching can occur. Based on my assumption, I can say that I take offense because again, you are making a judgment based on a refusal to speak grammatically incorrect English. And you know what? I am extremely comfortable with myself, with my "blackness". I am also very comfortable with everyone else.

24. [2]
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:29 PM/EST
robbie

Code-switching makes me uncomfortable because I feel that it otherwise contributes to the assumption that blacks don't naturally speak grammatically correct English. And if you do, then "you talk white". Whites do not have a monopoly on grammatically correct English. And I am insulted when people tell me things like, "Oh, you speak so well." I have to look at them and ask, "How would you expect me to speak?"

I guess all of this bothers me because in the past six years I have worked with many small children from low SES areas (many of whom happen to be black) and they (regardless of how young they are) would always tell me that I "talk white". As far I am concerned, this sets up another generation that feels that it is "selling out" its blackness by speaking standard English.

Wow, SmoothTap, I bet you are saying "Geez, I asked one little question!" Sorry. But I find this discussion invigorating as I am constantly correcting people when they use the phrase "talk white [or black]" So this is always a big issue for me. Especially because I happen to think that the reinforcement of these stupid stereotypes damages us all. And contribute to people world-wide thinking that all AA use phrases like "you go girl". We don't all speak that way. But we are all Black. And should be accepted as such.

25. SES matters
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:43 PM/EST
robbie

And does anyone think that people think that this so-called "ebonics" or slang is the way that blacks speak because we have all been primarily exposed to lower class blacks? Upper class blacks do not speak this way. And I don't mean higher income blacks. I mean truly upper class blacks. By contrast, lower class whites do speak using grammatically INcorrect English. Maybe if people (blacks, whites and everyone in general) are exposed to more educated blacks and higher SES blacks, they would cease to be surprised that we come with a variety of differences as well as similarities and stop trying to assign characteristics to us based on our skin color. I say this because I don't think many formerly lower class whites have heard, "My goodness, you speak well!"