Topic #11. Narrowmindedness within your family--how do you deal with it....
(Showing 9-23 of 38)

9. Narrowmindedness/Family Tensions
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 1:33 PM/EST
kusuf

Continuation...

This is not 'going down to their level;' it is the proper thing to do, for everyone's sake, because what would these people of whom you speak above so tolerantly do if they saw a minority being attacked on the street? I seriously doubt that someone who was a casual racist or who casually expressed views which skirted the boundaries of racism, whether explicit or tacit, would stick their neck out to help someone in need.

I simply do not think that cowardice and hatred, though indeed a part of life, ought to be encouraged at any price, for family unity or whatever, and I am very tired of the cliché 'going down to their level.' I no longer speak to my father or my mother, or any of my brothers because there is no way, any longer, that I will share in any sort of collusion with the mindset which engenders murder and dispossession. We as adults are ALWAYS responsible for our actions, and we all have to pay for what is done in our name. I gave my family members many opportunities, by speaking in depth with them, to amend their views but when, in the end, they didn't, and did not renounce harsh views of minorities and the underprivileged (which ironically my brothers and I are among but my mother will not acknowledge), I wrote them off as a great danger to themselves and others and thought 'If this is the path they want to take, then let them take it.' But I want to make it absolutely clear that I will not condone the suppression of or violence against anyone for reasons of race, sexual orientation, religion, etc., under any circumstances, even among my own family, nor do I believe that it should be tolerated in other families.

10. To Kusuf
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 9:49 PM/EST
jacqueline

For some strange reason, your post made me feel extremely defensive, despite the fact that I stand firmly behind the choices that I have made in my family. I don't tolerate expressions of racism in my presence, nor does my husband. But I have gotten to the point in my life where if a person can manage to treat me with respect, I am not overly concerned with what they "think."

I have found that most racist beliefs are pretty intractable. The average person that have prejudices against minorities groups does not consider themselves racist. And when you present yourself as an example of the error in their ways, they typically toss you into the exception category and continue believing as they always had. (Note: I am not unwilling to believe that I lack the necessary finesse to successfully deal with these situations).

The bottom line for me is that I am unwilling to make my family life into a war zone. None of the members of my family are perfect, myself included. For the most part, they are patient with me and I am patient with them. Anyone who seeks to cause us harm is excluded from our life, PERIOD. But, those with basically good intentions, who suffer from a lack of exposure, don't always say the right thing, don't really "get it" , etc. are welcome to stay.

I guess we all make our choices.

11. narrowmindedness is extremely annoying to handle
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 1:56 AM/EST
claddarng

Hi, I'm sorry I haven't posted anything until now, but it's because I was having a hard time just getting in this site. Anyway, I find that most people, of course not all, are narrowminded to a degree. I had a very close friend at one time. He no longer was a close friend when someone that we mutually knew was making a big stink about me married to a Jewish man with me being Catholic & having uncles & an aunt as clergy. The mutual friend was a supervisor at a large corporation in New York City. Well, as this jerk was ranting & raving about my marital status, my "close friend" was just laughing at me and not saying or doing anything about the remarks that were said. Now, I thought that this "close friend" would be someone who respected my wishes to marry a Jewish man, considering he came to my wedding, would not be so narrowminded, but he failed in the end. I am quite surprised on the ignorance of many people I know, that have made remarks to me, as well as, remarks about other races. I wish people could open their eyes, and see that these remarks only hurt people and it causes a seperation. Who cares, what the make-up of people are? As long, as you can get along with them, what difference does their background have anything to do with?? I agree with Jacqueline "where everyone makes their own choices".

12. Wow, I've missed a lot here...
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 2:57 AM/EST

This is mostly for kusuf. I don't know what to say, except that you took my breath away. I'm sorry that you think I express tolerance for the racist people in my family. I think I stated that I no longer see the racist people in my family..that they are no longer a part of my life, partially because they choose not to be, and partially because(and this is most important to me) I will not allow my daughter to be threatened by their views or the dangers which knowing them my present to her or her sense of self. I was mainly speaking to those of my family who though have come around to 'accepting' my husband and I, still occasionally make offhanded remarks that make me uncomfortable. I generally answer these remarks with as much candor as possible, but sometimes the dynamics of my family make openness about such matters difficult.

Here's something else I would like to point out. I choose not to live my life in anger. I could very easily do that. I could easily get angry over every stupid question or remark or lear. But I don't. I think one of the big failures of interracial marriages, and I'm sure others will correct me on this, is that the marriage, once the novelty of being the 'mixed' couple wears thin, is really made of nothing. And that if you make your marriage into a forum for your social and political views, ie, marrying someone to prove a point, and then facing the world angry at it with your spouse, it just doesn't work. So I choose to be maybe more forgiving than I should of some, to preserve the peace that I have with my husband..that is, I may get upset at what is said or done, but after all is said and done, I leave Mississippi and go back to my husband--and I am always grateful to get there. I simply cannot live my life battleing everyone. Therefore I choose my battles carefully.

Hope you understand this, and I guess I was made to feel a bit defensive myself.

Bethanie

13. For Bethanie & Jacqueline
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 9:54 AM/EST
kusuf

Why defensive? It's not an attack. But I'm certain that these things begin in families, and ultimately I think that's where they'll have to end. Family unity places demands on everyone, from the most uncompromising to the most timid, and depending on the situation someone, or everyone, is going to get hurt. There is no way to avoid this pain. My response to both of you, and anyone else whom I haven't addressed specifically, is fundamentally I will not give lip-service to anyone, no matter who they are, over the issues of racial or any other kinds of prejudice — not for peace, not so my son can know his grandparents (or my wife's family, one grandfather of which, by the way, offered to pay for the vasectomy of the husband of one of his granddaughters who had married a black man). Though this is said tongue-in-cheek, even Hitler was a nice guy sometimes, or, conversely, no one is all bad.

Continued...

14. For Bethanie & Jacqueline, cont.
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 10:06 AM/EST
kusuf

Continued...

Yes, we do all make our choices, but I didn't really think that this forum would be a celebration of our gifts for the obvious. I wanted, or hoped, to get close to the heart of the matter — but I know that's asking a lot. I am not at all concerned with coded language of black youth, native american, etc.—"Whaz up," "You goin' to the Rez?" It reminds me very much of the common white youth trip here in Seattle: colored hair, begging on the street as a sign of coolness, platform shoes. They are, as do most minorities, stereotyping themselves and, I don't think it's such a stretch of the imagination, doing EXACTLY what the powerful and bigoted want, i.e., wasting their time on the petty things while others make, and keep, the rules. Divide and conquer is as old as hatred, and one of its best tools. So I want to end by saying this: I am reminded very strongly of a documentary I saw of PBS about the protests against the Vietnam War in which a priest was exhorting his parishioners to protest. They complained to him that if they did they would go to prison, and what then would happen to their children? they asked. His response was, "What's going to happen to them if you don't?" That response sums up every reason why I joined this discussion.

15. For Kusuf: perhaps we are dealing with a gender gap
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 12:01 PM/EST
jacqueline

I just re-read yours, bethanie's and my posts, and at the risk of over generalizing, I think that we are experiencing a gender gap in the way that we perceive these issues. I think that we basically agree that expressions of racism cannot be tolerated. But beyond that, it seems that our gender roles may be shaping our opinions. (Be patient because I am about to make a huge generalization). In my family, supported by observation of other families, men tend to be the warriors and women the peacemakers.

Even though I can be quite the warrior in my professional life, I am much more a peacemaker at home. Kusuf, you remind me a lot of my own husband. For example, when we were first married and looking for an apartment, my white skin privileged, upper middle class husband experienced discrimination for the first time in his charmed life. An apartment owner who had been thrilled to rent to him when he was alone saying, "you're just the kind of person we want here," completely changed his tune when he understood that the black girl over there was the wife ("is SHE you wife?"). My husband went to war. He contacted the fair housing board, the media, a lawyer, and even a friend at the Justice Department (I am not kidding). He was ready for hand to hand combat to teach this guy a lesson.

He was extremely confused when I told him that I was okay with him pursuing punishment for the guy, but I didn't want to force him to allow us to live in the apartment. He say something like 'we have to pursue this to the end or he will never understand. Just getting money damages is not enough.' While I understood the logic of his point, I was not willing to have my home be ground zero of the "race war."

16. For Kusuf: cont'd
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 12:03 PM/EST
jacqueline

I say that understanding that there are many, many, people who sacrificed their personal peace to intergrate colleges, neighborhoods, workplaces, etc. I understand that I am benefitting from their courage to do something that I am unwilling to do. I am not ashamed to say that such is not my calling. I have many talents that I have offered to the struggle. John Milton said, "they also serve who stand and wait." In modern colloquy, I take it to mean that there are many ways to be a part of the solution. Your way is not my way. Despite that, I believe that we both can be effective.

Some wisdom is quiet.

17. kusuf...
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 12:12 PM/EST

I can't imagine anyone in my family that I still have the pleasure of knowing, making comments of this kind. ie, the comment about a viscectomy. I would never tolerate that remark or any remark of that nature, and would never be willing to compromise myself or my family in that way. By my family, I mean my husband and daughter--they are the people I live with, and they are the people closest to my heart.

I think I have repeatedly stated that I believe that what lies at the heart of my family's 'beliefs' is their ignorance and their steeping in old way Southern Baptist values...That they haven't had the honor of knowing many outside their race. I have always thought that the only way to fight ignorance is with education. I sincerely believe my family is a loving and accepting one, that they sometimes make comments out of misunderstanding and lack of knowledge I can put up with..

you say this starts and ends in the family?

I believe that without my family's (and my husband's, who's mother has been a big part of our life since we moved to Seattle, and who I love dearly, though she also makes racially motivated comments out of her 'old school' beliefs) support, despite their failings, life would be a lot harder for my husband and I. We have enough to think about having to face the outside world..if we had to face that without the support of our families, it would be a lot harder. I think I should have been clearer in saying that my family has come around a lot, and that for the most part they are supportive of our relationship, and maybe that way, I would not be reexplaining myself at this juncture. Maybe I should have titled this topic, facing ignorance in your family, instead of narrowmindedness, because that's what I believe it is.

Bethanie

18. Jacqueline...
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 12:28 PM/EST

I took up your husband's point of view when we moved to Michigan and for the first time faced all out discrimination from all areas. It was really the first time in my life too that I had faced it, and I tended to take up a reactionary stance. But I quite agree with you. I will never make my household the barracks of a race war. I really believe that is just too much responsibility to put on any one couple. And that's what I was talking about with the 'failings' of interracial marriages. This is not to say I 'tolerate' racism, but just that I have a different way of dealing with it.

Kusuf, we live in Seattle as well, and last fourth of July, my husband went to pick up our car from the mechanic, he was supposed to meet the mechanic there. Well, my husband didn't come home. After six hours of being frantic with worry, he finally showed up at the door, looking more devastated than I've ever seen him. He had been 'detained' by the police for waiting for the mechanic. In the end he was able to talk his way out of being arrested, but my biggest fear is that the day might come when he won't be able to do so, and so I always advise him to 'remain calm' in such instances..not because I believe he owes it to anyone, or that it doesn't make me angry as hell, but because I don't want to lose him. So I agree with Jacqueline, that I will always go the 'peaceful' route of dealing with situations, because I'm trying to hold my family together. And I think that is what most women try to do--call me sexist, but that is none the less, my belief.

19. REPLY
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 1:05 PM/EST
smoothtap

AsI sit here and read these postings and I have to ask, are we here to convince everyone that our way is right or are we attempting to share experiences and gain an understanding? Life is what we are exposed to everyday, not what we would like it to be if it were a perfect world. In our attempt to show the world that blacks come from all different backgrounds we keep describing lower class blacks negatively. Just because a person chooses to stay in the hood and use slang doesn't make him/her bad. That's just one of the many facets of our culture. The only reason why it’s a big issue among some blacks is because it is the majority lives it and upper class blacks are trying to overcome the stigma. I think that’s is a good thing. But in the process please don't make other people look bad for not choosing the same direction.

20. "I gave my family members many opportunities..."
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 12:10 PM/EST

I think there is a pretty common gender gap. Whatever is natural and cultural, men are often more aggressive but we now live in an age when agility of mind counts far more - and men can learn this too.

Kusuf said something very scary to my ears:

> I gave my family members many opportunities, by

> speaking in depth with them, to amend their views

> but when, in the end, they didn't, and did not

> renounce harsh views of minorities and the

> underprivileged (which ironically my brothers and

> I are among but my mother will not acknowledge),

> I wrote them off as a great danger to themselves

> and others and thought 'If this is the path they

> want to take, then let them take it.'

,,, is what he said.

Kusuf is acting as judge and jury and he isn't so far from executioner?

Kusuf - by ignoring the progress in dealing with racism this country has had you run many risks - like equating the means of yesterday, civil war, with today, non-violent protest or even dialogue. Look at the progression - revolutions of confederated states... civil war... ending slavery and suffrage movement... civil rights.... Have any of these been enough? No. But do they build on eachother? Absolutely! Certainly we need to bring this transformation home. But home cannot be a place of war and violence. Purity of heart, chastity of soul and freedom of spirit i think are the things we have to learn in this age. Tolerance is not enough and tolerance has no place in a family.

21. Some Things Never Change
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 10:58 PM/EST

My parents live 350 miles from me and have for most of my adult life. I keep in touch with them but have learned over the years that there are certain topics about which they just don't want to know. For example, I am a recovering alcoholic, sober now over ten years. This is the singlemost important accomplishment of my life to date as everything I am today, I am because I am sober. However, as they chose to turn their heads and ignore my drinking, they find my sobriety to be an equally distasteful subject.

When I started seeing my fiance, I mentioned him to them in conversation but did not disclose his race...didn't know where this was going and could see no point in "getting them started". However, when finally my mother asked me directly "What does he look like", I told her. First came the silence, then the big sigh and finally the "Oh Donna." She began relating to my sister's experience 20 years ago and how it disrupted the family (I had a rich uncle who disowned my sister when she married a black man). I couldn't believe it, yet was not surprised.

When I told them that we were serious and that we were planning on being married (no date set, right now the committment is enough for us both!!) she really reacted. The thing is, I am not a child nor at the age of fifty will I be having any so what is the problem???? SHe simply will not acknowledge that her ideas are racist in nature, simply that there will be trouble because we "come from different backgrounds."

So, this doesn't stop. The reaction is the same. They are still afraid of "what the neighbors will think." They are older and I don't want them unduly stressed about me, but I still want to share the good stuff with them. It bothers me but I have come to accept their attitudes as their attitudes.

Donna Lou

22. Donna Lou...
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - /EST

Same here. Some things my family just doesn't want to discuss. They realized a long time ago I think, that my opinions and views were wildly different from theirs, and I think decided at that time that they would just not talk about certain issues with me. Race is one of these issues. While they have learned to accept my husband into their home, and even to love him..and they cherish the time they have with our daughter...they will simply not be bothered to discuss the racism that still is present in our extended family units, in a way that might help the visiting situations that my daughter and I have to go into two to three times a year. I don't think it's that they don't care, or that they want to see us uncomfortable when we do visit, I think it's just that they have trouble discussing things that have in past generations, been 'off-limits.' Your alcoholism is a case in point...I think probably your parents are in much the same situation. Sometimes older people still see the world as it was twenty years ago..they don't see enough of it to see that attitudes DO and HAVE changed. So the topics of conversation that made them uncomfortable twenty years ago still do. Alcoholism for instance, was something that was by and large ignored just scant years ago. People just pretended their spouses, parents and children didn't have a problem..same with the race issue, it was simply not polite dinner conversation. Now everything's fair game, and I think the old simply have trouble changing with the times...

What are your thoughts on this...

Bethanie

23. Bethanie
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 11:55 AM/EST

I definitely agree. My parents are in their 70's and when they were youg, people didn't date across religious lines to a point where Baptists didn't date Methodists...that hard a line. My grandmother, who was raised a Catholic, met and married a Swedish Lutheran immigrant in 1919 at the age of 20. Not only that, but he rode a motorcycle!!! The family was horrified and tried in vain to annul the marriage and "talk her back into her senses" (her words). She was stubborn, though and they were married for 45 years when he died. It is strange that when my sister married interracially in 1979, my grandmother was not real supportive. I tried to talk to her and show here this similarities between her choices and my sister's but she never did see them. She has been dead now nearly 20 years so I don't have to deal with her reaction.

Getting involved in this relationship has brought me great joy. If I had avoided this, I would have missed out on so much (including this forum) and I would have been the loser. My parents cannot see that. They say they want me to be happy but when I tell them that I am, that doesn't seem to work. I am 50 years old after all and no longer need their approval (if I ever did). I cannot change another person's opinions or ideas. I can only change the way I react to them. I can be an example, however and help others to understand about these issues.

People who have never been in an IR relationship do not understand that, for the most part, race is a non-issue. We work, play, love, cry etc. etc. just like every other couple. As Bill put it, our main difference is that I am a woman, my love is a male (also a Scorpio vs. my Taurus which makes for an interesting mix!!!) If our difference were simply eye or hair color, would it be an issue??? No, that is how we deal with race at home. Once in a while the outside world intrudes, but not often.

Donna Lou