Topic #9. Does white American have mercy for the black population of this earth?
(Showing 1-55 of 55)

1. Does white American have mercy for the black population of this earth?
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 2:44 AM/EST
link

I sometimes feel that white american doesn't really understand the pain and the suffering of the black and other minorities on this planet. The fruit doesn't fall to far from the tree. We black people are from a bad history of pain and non respect for our fellow kind(in this country). This is mainly because we were taught not to like ourselves or Africans that come to this country to find a better way of life. Do people want to stop the pain are do most people think that it will pass by itself. I was taught from my mother who was taught from her mother and so on. This shows that our struggles are still here today because "the spirits of the pass are the spirits that dewell on this planet today." If my ancestor was darker skinned and told they were bad and the lighter skinned was educate then you can understand the black man and woman problems of today.

2. link
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 7:56 AM/EST
ottercat

Maybe we need to stop teaching these things to ourselves.

3. Definitions
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 11:48 AM/EST

If black people are fooled into defining themselves by race and race alone then they walk hand-in-hand with the biased whites and/or others.

And please don't tell me they are "forced by the white majority" to do this - that is a weakling's excuse.

Sorry to be blunt but these posts and this series are just too dern dull!

4. Mercy? Yes
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 1:01 PM/EST
joan

Yes, I have long perceived the gross injustice done to black Americans and to black populations in the other countries treated by the colonists as if they had no brains or culture of their own. So, does everyone know this when they deal with me? Of course not. The best I know to do is to look everyone in the eye and treat them with the respect that I want for myself. I also do not allow other whites to badmouth AFAM's around me. Is that enough? I don't know, but I do the best I can.

5. population
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 2:09 PM/EST
simsow

I was taught also by my mother; some things she taught me are wrong! I repect her in the fact that she believes she is right (and my mother), but should we not all respect each other above all else? If we teach our children "like Cicily" that her life is what she makes it of course she will still have to deal with other people. Respect is something learned and earned.

The family; Wilson-Sims seems to want what any other family wants. Yes they have racial issues, and life issues as well, but so does everyone else. Teaching our children their heritage is right, but teaching them to think "racism" is wrong! On one hand clinging to the past ways of thinking does not help in moving forward, but knowing where we were keeps us striving to move on to better things.

6. whites having mercy..
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 5:08 PM/EST
ottercat

Uh, wait a minute, didn't African tribes practice slavery on each other before Europeans discovered them? Aren't the people killing each other off in Rwanda in utter defiance of U.N. protests black? Wasn't the Ethiopean famine a few years back started as an attempt by their own government to drive their political enemies out of the back country? Didn't the (White?)U.S. government try to help? What more could they (we) do? Bomb them all and put them out of their misery like Kosovo? Much good that did.

7. Mrs. ottercat
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 8:40 PM/EST
link

You just wait a minute it is obvious that you don't know anything about African history. For one, when you talk about the Africans having slaves, they did but not in the same manner as the Whites did in England. The shamen of the villages had wars with other tribes and they didn't have jail systems so they took the people they captured as servants and sometimes they even married them, and if a father or brother stole something in the village their children whould become servants to the shamen. If you ask me I think that is better than this so called jail system here. They didn't kill them and cut off the body parts of people and saved them in jars. Please study about a subject before you talk about it. As for the poor whites in the country this problem was not made by black people. After the Civil War they had more blacks in the country than whites so the whites decided to balance the population. I believe the more whites that came to the country also became a burden on resources just as the blacks did but if they had came to a fair resolution and helped both sides maybe everyone would live the same but I don't really know that either because of the migration of others to this country, but look at the populations in the united states now and it is 72% white and 13%black and the rest is other. As for the Wars in Africa they are caused by the Whites being there and taking resources and not giving back. They also cause these wars because they push the tribes people together when they don't have the same structure in culture. Just because they are all black in skin color doesn't mean that they practice the same traditions. Evidently you or your husband don't care about any other culture but the culture which you live. Also the spead of Islam throughuot the northern regions of Africa are causing wars because of the conflicts in religions. "Look at the causes not just the end result."

8. LINK
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 10:46 AM/EST
simsow

I agree somewhat to what you are saying, we should all read more history since it would help us in understanding some of these issues. Put in the simplest way I can think of; if your parent committed a crime should your grand child be punished for it? I read about what some of the "white" people and the hideous things they did and it makes me sick and shameful to call them human. But those people were ignorant of other cultures and afraid. I am glad I was not of that time in history only because it would have been my death sentence, as I would have spoken out as I do now.

One cause for some of the racism today is because of what is taught in the home. Another cause is because of our own fear of the unknown. And yet some people know this and "refuse" to make change or change within themselves. I have no pity on them as the choices they make not only will they pay for it, but there are other people as well and for those people I am truly sorry.

9. simsow
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 3:12 PM/EST
link

The Africans at that time didn't have jail, so I feel that the only deterrent to crime was to make a man, the person who did the crime suffer and emotional pain. Because if you love someone you never want to see them hurt.

10. Black History
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 5:27 PM/EST

I think there are plenty enough despicable black despots in Africa just as there are plenty of despicable white, brown, and yellow despots all over the world.

The last time I checked no "race" had managed to get rid of all its bad guys.

We whites are sometimes as smart as we are despotic and we can and do manipulate world events in the hopes we will profit at the expense of others .... but we aren't always successful, are we?

The crux of the matter seems to be this. All of us have a tough row to hoe and blacks have a very tough row, much tougher than most. As they look down this row what do they say? "Damn, but this row is long and hard I think I'll ............."

Friends, fill in the blank.

11. I love it!
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 11:36 PM/EST
joan

Smitty, you can "talk" any time. I really enjoy your style! In this case, I certainly agree with what you said, and I LOVED the way you said it. To borrow an expression I like, "You go, girl"!

12. Having Mercy
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 1:37 AM/EST

I know I have always felt anger and shame about the way African Americans has been treated in this country, and I can only imagine it's a fraction of what they must feel. I think the feelings of anger, pain and guilt among us have never really been healed (over the years) and have created a strong barrier between whites and blacks in this country. I think it has also limited whites and

blacks in this country from truly getting to know each other, so very little bonding has occured. One of the few ways we really bond as Americans is with music-usually created by amazingly talented black musicians! It's interesting, and I have hope that forums like this will break down those barriers.

13. Thank you to all
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 2:18 PM/EST
link

I am glad we can agree on somethings, because we will never agree on everything!

14. Joan and Nena
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 7:30 PM/EST

Thanks for the kind words, Joan. Nena, you work in the industry. What could you add to Thread #14?

For that matter, I would like to see everyone take a look at it and comment.

Charlley, right down the way from you in Greensboro lives my aunt, a white maiden lady from Michigan in her late 70's, almost blind from glaucoma.

She still plugs along, working for the Humane Society and shoving checks in envelopes and sending them to the United Negro College Fund as she has done, as far as I know, for many decades.

I mention her because she is in your town, but let's hope Carlton and Len and our other young firebrands manage to recognize such persons exist.

15. smitty
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 1:57 AM/EST
link

I thank the lady for everything she has done and what she will do in the future, because she is helping to make bridges, that will let us all free. I thank all people that help anyone to make their lives better.

16. whining
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 5:58 PM/EST
davidt10

I believe that if blacks would stop all their whining about slavery and all the other things and start acting and thinking like other human beings then they might start to be treated like all other human beings. When all I hear every day is how white man put them into slavery and how I should feel sorry for them and all the other nonsense then it makes me want to puke. It seems funny that I don't feel this way toward any other race but blacks. Why???????

17. Do you _really_ want answers, David?
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 5:00 AM/EST
thaduke

Well, at least you're back instead of perpetrating a drive-by posting.

David, we ARE real people...real human beings. Why do you not believe this? We love our families, our kids, want a better future for all of us, we fight, curse, drink, work, worry...all of the stuff your folks do. Instead of asking, really truthfully asking for answers, you simple spit out old, hoary stereotypes and what you see on the TV about African Americans as being the absolute truth.

We're not the Borg, David. We're human beings that want what you want. Respect. Kindness. Fair treatment. Not the promise of happiness; just the ability to compete for it like everyone else. To be judged by what we INDIVIDUALLY do, or say: not by what you THINK we do or say.

Some might say I'm wasting my electrons with you David; maybe I am. I just feel that if you let go of the hate, and yes, the fear you have, you might actually like and respect us as human beings.

We don't NEED you to like us; that's for damn sure.

But it just might be a nice experience for all of us.

ThaDuke

18. WHY DO WE FEEL THIS WAY?
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 12:27 PM/EST
simsow

There is nothing wrong with whining; complaining, fussing, etc. We are all guilty! From children to the very old.

Some white men did put them in chains, but no one asked you personally to feel sorry for them. They simply want what you want, respect, the opportunities that you have; treated with dignity, respect, purchase homes, cars, get a college education and go where ever they choose without being afraid. Some people do not value what they have until they lose it.

19. David 10
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 12:56 PM/EST
link

I for one, I think you feel this way because you are in contact with the African-Americans almost daily. I don't know how many times any of us can tell you we don't care if you like us are not, just treat us how you want to be treated. You don't live with us. The other people that some whites call black because of skin color are oddities to you and an adventure for you to explore. If you travel to those countries just for a few days, that doesn't mean you really know the people. They could really hate whites and you white people would never know it by the way they welcome you into their countries. I really don't understand how white people think they can go to a country that has people of dark skin color and call themselves respectful, when whites over here can't be kind and fair to the dark people over here. I think some people just like feeling superior.

20. Stupid question
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 5:55 PM/EST
ottercat

...but a good place to ask it. Can anyone give me a good definition of "white"? I thought I knew, but I'm not so sure now. link and david10 seem to have such different definitions. Can someone tell me exactly what "white" is?

21. A Cautious Gambit
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 8:13 PM/EST

Some opportunistic black "leaders" do a lot

of fan-flaming about the past. It seems most of the black participants in these posts don't bite

on that line of argument.

I think most white people are like me. They recognize the terrible wrongs; both past and present. But they are aware (I am 61) of changes

that have taken place in the law, in business,

and in the minds and hearts of many.

When some blacks seem transfixed by the past, when

they seem unable or unwilling to see the whole

variety of black experience, then some white

people become exasperated. They say to themselves,

"These people are not seeing things clearly and

what is more, they are being downright nasty about

it."

American blacks who move to other nations of black

populations seem (in my limited experience) to find these nations fall short. As I said in another post, you won't see Carlton or Len back in

Nigeria anytime soon (but you will see doctors and

missionaries both black and white doing service

there).

Almost every day of my life I draw a deep breath

and thank my lucky stars that I am not driving

a herd of sheep in a high Mongolian pasture or

ducking a machete in Burundi - or dodging a sniper

in Yougoslavia.

22. A little clarification...
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 9:36 PM/EST
thaduke

Smitty;

When you speak of "black leaders" you make one of the fundamental mistakes that are made when non-black peoples speak of us: that we are the Borg, led by one consciousness, one thought, one creed. The so-called "leaders" only speak for those that follow them. I don't know your political leanings, but it's like all white Americans are lead by David Duke or Pat Buchanon. Silly, ain't it? But that is what is done by non-blacks every day: they assume that since s/he is black, we automatically tow "the party line".

----more------

23. Mistake Two...
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 9:40 PM/EST
thaduke

Mistake two: mistaking cosmetic change for a sea change. Yes. We're not having fire hoses turned on us, we can vote, we can do a helluva lot of things that we could not do even twenty years ago. Should we hit our knees thanking every non-black person for allowing us this!? HELL NO!!! This is what EVERY American is entitled to...it's not some largesse that has been bestowed upon us like little kids given a Big Wheel for Christmas! Today, at the cusp of the third millennium after the birth of Christ, I STILL hear about black people subjected to everything from "Driving while Black" police stops, to being referred to as "Gorillas in the Mist" to being taken for a ride...on the back of a pickup...by a chain. I've got people objecting to helping minorities (that includes white women) get training and opportunities in underrepresented fields, becase of ignorance and fear of a rapidly changing US. This in spite of the unemployment rate for non-white adults being two to three times higher than the general rate. So, yes...things have gotten better...I do not deny it...but the really heinous exceptions to this rule are still there, or getting worse.

I know you can't legislate what is in a person's heart. But now we have people believing, still, in 1999, that we don't have the right to exist as we wish, that we're not "real human beings" (as our buddy DavidT10 would have us believe), and other such diminutives.

24. Mistake #3
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 9:55 PM/EST
thaduke

(With apologies to Culture Club...)

Ah yes. The "we're transfixed with the past" argument.

Let's suppose that you're a normal, hardworking, reasonable person. However, you're male in a certain country. In the nation, there is a history of females being dominant, and treating you as property, taking away your rights, etc. A century or so have passed. Treatment of you by women is much improved, but some of the old thinking is very much evident by your social treatment, condition, and by behaviors still cropping up from the past. When you walk down the street, you can be subjected to one of the few outward behaviors that is still practiced. You may be whacked in the back of your skull with a stick at any time by a woman who possesses the old feelings. No one either recognizes this, or cares. You complain to the authorities, telling them there is a law against this. They either don't care, or think you're ungrateful for the kindness you've been shown for the past 100 years of not owning, torturing, or otherwise humiliating you.

It won't take long for you to start doing a "Crazy Ivan" every five seconds, checking your six for a madwoman with a stick. Even if you live in a reasonably progressive area, you can bet that there are still some of the "old guard" living there who don't like you, and will take a lick at you given the opportunity.

Can’t you see how someone would be cautious, and concentrating "on the past" in such an instance? We _know_ that most white people, when given the chance, and humane and good. However, the ones that either (a) blatantly whack us, or (b) by unexplored attitudes take little swings at us, maybe without knowing it are making life damn hard. Sure, we could ignore the past…but concussions are damn hard to recover from…

Tha’ Duke

25. Mistake Four
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 10:01 PM/EST
thaduke

"America: Love it or Leave It"...

This may not be what you wanted to convey, Smitty...but this is how it comes off. We should be grateful that we live in a land of possibilities, yes...but not grateful to any man for it. To God, yes: but not to some who thinks we should just shut up and be grateful for what we have been given. It doesn't work that way.

Whether Carlton and company know what they've got is inconsequential: whether we are a nation that lives up to its pledge of allegiance is. "ONE NATION...INDIVISIBLE...LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL."

Justice, smitty: it's not just for breakfast anymore...

Posted in respect, friendship and learning:

Tha' Duke

26. To ThaDuke
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 11:15 PM/EST
link

Thank you for everything you just stated, I agree whole-heartedly. I would like to ask the question, why do we in America think that our lives are so much better or on a higher plateau than any other culture? Just because they have wars and people are starving. Do we think that they caused these hardships by themselves? "I never wish for things unseen, only when it is brought to my attention do I covet". Has the US had wars and depression? Our lives are simply more complicated by materializm, as theirs soon will be if not careful. Hypothetically, if someone said to me, "Go back to Africa", my reply would be, "Sure, just give me a couple of million to get set up and I'll pay my house off here and I'm gone." I would go to Ghana, they are trying to offer dual citizenship to the African Americans. Other countries like Isreal do it, why not us?????? Waving my hands again.

27. Old Cautious Smitty Again
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 11:46 AM/EST

Well, duke, we are down to talking about "degrees" of things and we may not be able to slice and dice thin enough to satisfy either of us.

No, all or even most blacks (and as I said, certainly not those on this message board) do not go along with the Sharpton-esque type. BUT, if you fall with the young lady in Nigeria and fail to break openly with that Al (for the sake of unity?) then you allow the question to remain open.

There HAS been a sea change, duke, and (I am sure you will agree) when some black people remain sitting at the kitchen table clipping out stories about DWB and wrongful treatment rather than grabbing the brass ring of education or jobs that is out there, then they are doing themselves no good.

And, please, you are fully entitled to a real large dose of "nobody knows like WE know" because that is both heritage and reality. But as slavery recedes, as Jim Crow recedes, as job discrimination gets less-oppressive, then black people must come along with the program - or they will find themselves like the Serbs; a deep, dark, miserable people re-fighting battles centuries old and unable to deliver their children to a better life. Fortunately, these posts seem to suggest that many blacks are doing what's in their self interest.

And, hey, I don't apologize for suggesting that American blacks could be worse off. It's true.

Let me hear from you -

28. Questions unanswered
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 3:37 PM/EST
ottercat

Guess nobody wants to define "white" for me. Too easy or too hard? Try it this way, then. What's "black"? One African grandfather? One African great-grandfather? The descendants of Sally Hemming, who (as I understand) was 3/4 "white" though she spent her life as a black woman, are considered the "black" descendants of Thomas Jefferson today. Personally, I think they look just like the "white" descendants.

Now consider: The oldest "human" remains have been discovered in Africa, which means the human race started there,which means we all have African ancestors. Are we then all black?

Okay, it's trivial, it's extreme. My point is that they're only labels. We are however we choose to be, the persona we live. Want to be angry? The world will receive you with anger. Want to be afraid? It can be arranged.Want to be open and joyous, loving life and everything in it? You can do that too.

We have people on this site who want us to be angry,hurtful bullies. See it that way if you like. I see you as children who were hurt who grew into hurting adults. I wish I could help.

Okay, hit me.

29. Caution---no crossing zone in America, Smitty
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 9:32 PM/EST
thaduke

Oh Smitty...

I guess I didn't make myself clear enough.

You're just displaying a kinder, gentler variation of David's "if blacks would just act like real human beings" shtick. What some non-blacks fail to realize is that no matter how many degrees I get, no matter how many nice cars I drive, no matter how many suits I wear, how well I speak standard English, or what job I have, I will be just another black boy to them. Reminds me of a very sad joke: Q: What do you call a black man who finds the cure for cancer, makes $10 million a year, and wins the Nobel Peace Prize? A: A Nigger.

That's what we're up against. No matter if we put down the scissors now (as if we don't have a right to be aware of these things), and "joined the world" of opportunities you crow about, we'll still be "niggers"...do you get it yet? I can come along with the program...hell, I can PROGRAM the damn program, and it will never make a dime's worth of difference with a good hunk of the non-black population of this nation.

And do you know what's worst, Smitty. To have your concerns and real situations just dismissed. Do we want the pity of non-black folks? Hell no. Just to be judged by our actions and character, not assigned a worth by our skin color, and certainly not to be told basically, "it's all in your head", or "mind over matter".

-----more------

30. Just so you know, Smitty...
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 9:33 PM/EST
thaduke

I'm taking this opportunity in this forum to educate and help you at least think about what goes on in the black community, as I see it. I don't think you're a horrible person. I've gotta commend you for at least going and staying outside of your comfort zone, if just for a little while, and expressing what's on your mind, Smitty. Don't run off with your tail between your legs like some others here: we'll never get this thing worked out that way.

BTW: (a) At first eyeball, can you tell the difference between a Serb and a Kosovar Albanian? Didn't think so, and (b) If you don't do what's in your or your family's self interest, there is something very wrong. It just so happens that fair treatment, and not being burdened down with stereotypes is in my best interest. Hope there's not a problem with that.

Tha' Duke

31. Why we in America feel we're special...
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 9:52 PM/EST
thaduke

Link, in answer to your question. We feel we're blessed, special, on a higher plane of existance because (a) when you're not foraging for food and shelter, you can think of higher asperations (not that there aren't US citizens that have to forage for food and shelter: just very few compared to other countries. (b) Some of the poorest people in America live like kings when compared to the poorest in another country. (c) Even though she hasn't fully lived up to all of her credos and abilities, this IS a grea nation, and we can do those things that we put our minds to, and we have the freedom to do them, even though with obstacles.

As for me, if I relocated I would chose Costa Rica. Nice climate, nearby civilization, no taxes, no standing army (I believe). And they have some of the mixing going on there, so we'd not be an "odditty".

Thaduke

32. Thanks and kudos Duke
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 11:44 AM/EST

Anyone who uses the correct spelling of "schtick" is OK in my book. Hey, we both respect Yiddish. Can't be bad.

I take all your points very seriously and can't fault you on any of them. I said we were slicing and dicing matters of degree and that quickly gets to what an individual makes of their own life.

Yes, the identifiable skin color thing is rough. It is a hallmark that makes your life tougher than that led by the Irish, the Germans, the Italians; all of whom were once objects of discrimination (and why we don't disciminate against the Irish more than we do puzzles the hell out of me ;-0 ... only kidding, troops)

Duke, you are 34 and I am 61. You seem to feel regardless what you do you will be a "nigger." To everyone, everywhere? Of course not. Mordant humor within the black community is fine - so far as it goes. I read a lot of Russian inside humor. It is funny but it also centers on how f**ked up their country is.

I always wonder what sort of stumbling block that is - to institutionalize defeat.

33. Okay Smitty...you _kinda_ get it, but...
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 6:12 PM/EST
thaduke

Smitty, I'm not singing the "poor me" song. I don't like it when "we" do that about things that can be overcome by our own actions. However, as I said before, and will say again, there are SOME non-black people who will ONLY see black, with all the concomitant stereotypes. (Let me state that I do not feel that everywhere and everyone will see me this way. Please re-read my post and find the qualifier in that sentence).

I can't do a damn thing about their way of thinking (I do still at times play the "black ambassador" or "brotha from the inside telling the (fill in race) person what it's really like" (yeah, I know I shouldn't _have_ to, but it's reality sometimes).

Oh yeah...the last part about institutionalizing defeat and mordant humor. First, it's not "inside joking". Come to think about it, there isn't a damn thing funny about it. Secondly, I got that joke reported to me from a good WHITE friend of mine, one who I have no doubts would take a bullet for me, and I for him. He's my "mole on the inside" for a lot of viewpoints of white folks. Thirdly, the punchline of the joke isn't how WE feel...it's what we still, in Nineteen frickin' Ninety-nine, at the dawn of the Third Millennium have to put up with.

Stop flirting with the "it's all in your heads" crap, Smitty. If you were down with "the struggle" as you claim, I believe that you know better than that. Remember the "I AM A MAN" posters? That's where we're coming from.

ThaDuke

34. Deep Breath
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 7:25 PM/EST

Okaaaaaay ......

I don't get it at all. "...take a bullet for me,"

"I am a man" in all caps?

Notice what happens on these boards sometimes. The rhetoric goes up a notch, the words become a bit more potent, slogans seem to creep in where ideas once were primary?

I will assume you are a man. No problem. After I know you for 5 years I will be able to make a fair judgment if my assumption was correct. Now how about my white brothers and sisters ... let me know how one of them has messed with you, say, taking in the past two weeks.

Please lend me accounts which you can reasonably be certain were bias-driven.

Can do?

35. Okay...I guess you _didn't_ get it...
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 9:29 PM/EST
thaduke

Smitty, this ain't some "prove to my satisfaction" you've been hurt game we're playing here. I'm definitely not playing. The insidious thing about racism is that (a)at least in most parts of the country, and especially where I live, they're never stupid enough to "do it to you" in your face. You can be denied the job, the favor, the opportunity, and never know exactly why. You can be disciplined for something...hell, you may even deserve it, then another person who commits a similar violation, and who was guilty gets a pass, when you both have the same work performance, style, and reputation. "That," as my friend would say, "is the bitch of it". You may very well may be persecuted because of your race. Then again, you may be persecuted because of something else. Then again, maybe you're not being persecuted, and are getting your just desserts. The bitch of it is, in 1999, that we STILL actually have to even ask the question!!! Do you understand? If something happens like this to you, and the person with the power is the same color as you, then there are myriad reasons that you're getting the short end of the stick. If this person dislikes you because of your skin color, then, on top of everything else, they may have it in for you because of this alone. Unless they're a blooming idiot, and they enjoy forking over their money to me in a lawsuit, they'll never tell me the "real" reason they're shafting me, and it will forever be a question mark. The very fact that I have to even consider that they hate me for something that I could not control, shouldn't have to modify, and something that makes just about as much real difference as my shoe size or hair color just frosts my ass, and those of most African Americans, I dare say.

---more----

36. And furthermore....!!!
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 9:32 PM/EST
thaduke

By the way, don't mistake frustration in getting my point across as "sloganeering" or "rhetoric". Again, if you have any memory of the Selma bus picketers (or was it Montgomery?), you'll know that the "I AM A MAN" signs were prevalent in the group. That succinctly sums up what I've been trying to express, and what you may not still be getting.

I thought that after being in CORE and NAACP that you'd have at least an inkling that these thing still happen, and that they're not "just in our heads". That I wouldn't have to itemize my grievances and slights and injuries to you like I was in some IRS audit.

Are you looking for some absolution, some verification that you're an "all right guy?" I can't give that to you. Only God and you know if this is right. I'm sorry that you've been disillusioned about the dialogue on race in this country. I'm sorry that you can't fathom the anger and resentment. I'm sorry if it makes you uncomfortable. Believe me, speaking as a black man (even though I don't let it rule my life) it does the same to me. Don't you believe we'd lose all of the anger and resentment if we could be guaranteed that we'd be judged by the content of our character solely? In a New York Minute!!!

Look, Smitty. I'll still post here. I'll still talk to you. But you've gotta know that you're pissing a helluva lotta black people off with the variations of the "it's in your head" and "prove it to me" ploys. I've admitted that much of our anger is misplaced, and that some of the problem we experience we bring on ourselves. Can't you meet me in the middle, and admit that injustice to blacks does happen, and that it's a bitch, or does that make you as crazy as it makes us, and is therefore uncomfortable?

Tha' Duke

37. Well, it's thisaway
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 11:12 AM/EST

Duke, I invited you to take me up on something that makes sense to me. In my neighborhood I have two men who dislike me intensely; not for a just reason (I think), but because I personify what they fear most (I work, I take care of business, etc.)

I actually see and confront their anger maybe once a year. This I can handle with no difficulty, The rest of the time I drive them by with a cheery wave. If I had to deal with them more frequently, however, they would prey on my mind a lot more.

Duke, you are getting close to pissing ME off. Do you realize you are asking me to agree (over and over) to something I learned before you were born?

Can the multi-exclamation points stuff and the rhetoric - god, can't you see how ridiculous it is for a man to have to say "I AM A MAN"?

Take a page from charlley's book .... if you can't trust that most white people are on your side then you might as well give it up.

Once again (pant, pant) I will aver it is "degree" about which we talk. If you see the world though a particular set of lenses then these will distort that world. This is why I asked for objective examples.

You fall into the same trap as so many have - you throw a fit and make noises about how you will stick to the dialogue (thus implying a realization you could pick up your ball and go home). Get a clue, duke, the resentment should take up, say, 3% of your mind or you are one unhealthy man.

Is it that low? OK, then let's move on. Is it higher? Then you should watch your stress level and that of those around you who love and depend on you.

38. To Tha'Duke and Smitty
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 11:57 AM/EST
joan

Came back to this thread rather late and feel I'd actually have to print up and study everything you've both said in order to get a real perspective. However, I must say that I have found Tha'Duke's comments consistently sensible, fairly restrained (as in not out of control) and both understand and agree with what you say. In fact, like it or not, you get my highest compliment - for a while I thought I was reading thoughts from another woman. That means that there is introspection, emotional honesty and a sensitivity I've seen more often in women than in men. That doesn't mean I automatically dismiss what you're saying, Smitty, but I perceive you as not "getting" what Tha'Duke is saying or putting a twist on it when there's none there. Oh well - that's my two cents worth.

39. tha'guys
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 1:24 PM/EST
ottercat

No, joan, I think you're right. They're bumping heads and when they've cooled off they'll see more clearly. Good to see tha'Duke has some emotions about the subject. His affability was beginning to worry me.

40. --more--
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 5:57 PM/EST
ottercat

Okay, I thought about it. Maybe I know how to explain it.

Smitty, if you got kicked in the head every day from the time you learned to walk, you' expect it. If for some reason you didn't get kicked today, you -knew- you'd get kicked tomorrow. If the kicking stopped for twenty years, then somebody kicked you, could you believe it was an accident?

Duke, even if you are getting kicked, should you let it paralyze you? Or should you get to work making your life and your children's lives better, so maybe the kicks will stop?

Anyway, that's what it sounds like you're trying to say.

41. Who's That Calling thaduke "affable?"
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 5:57 PM/EST

Hurt my feelings much? It's the duke who started with the multiple exclamation points. I have printed out all his messages and now I will re-read his two from yesterday again. (hold on a moment)

He seems to be saying it's a shame he has to even think about racism in this day and time (that's message #1).

He seems in #2 to ask me to meet him half way and admit that "injustice to black does happen."

How about it? Pretty fair?

Just how far back did I start saying I thought we were talking matters of "degree" and might not be able to really zero in on it?

Let's say Carlton gets his food late and immediately can convince himself and the other black kids it's because they are black. He is going to be a very unhappy young man.

Suppose Carlton can't get an apartment in Dayton, Ohio even though he's answered 15 ads and he phones home and says, "Mom, I guess my luck is bad. All 15 had just been rented." Then he's a very stupid young man. Right?

Somewhere in the middle I imagine Carlton can fashion a fairly good life. He seems bright enough. He apparently will get a Colgate education and be able to inquire at the restaurant kitchen about the slow service as well as sue the pants off a landlord or two.

Duke, your point seems obvious. Of course it is a rotten deal that discrimination still exists. But it ain't gonna go away. Rage on, then. There's too many of us dumb crackers out here and we are breeding.

You have a right to every single scintilla of rage that's in your body. On the other hand, it can't be of such a degree that it rules you. Got that? It is your right to rage but, just as you would during a house fire, you overcome your fear and stress to get your kids out and call for help.

I honestly do not think you are an out-of-control man. I never did. But some are. Not so?

42. Smitty...
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 11:01 PM/EST
thaduke

Your claim to superior knowledge or legitimacy by age aside, you need to understand some things. No, let me change that. You don't "need to know" any of these things if you choose. I and others are just trying to let you see life from a vantage point that you cannot avail yourself of. I'm doing it in the spirit of humanity and understanding. If your feelings are hurt by my passion and !!!'s, I don't know what to say to you. I'm not going to stop being pissed off by stupidity committed upon black folk, and interracial couples and their offspring, and I'm not going to stop expressing the strength of my feelings (within reasonable parameters) about the injustice that still exists.

Yes, Smitty...I have it relatively good. Nice job, good kids, actually have NEVER been pulled over for DWB, although I admit it exists (maybe because of the piece of crap 72 Caddy I own...who knows :-) The overwhelming people where I live are either (a) too smart, or (b) too scared to express whatever enmity they hold for me for being a black man, or to take overt hostile actions against my wife and kids for being an interracial family. We get the nasty old lady, mouth full of sour owl s*%t looks, and the stares, but we knew this coming in. Some people will never "get it" as far as knowing that love sees no color, when properly based. That's cool: it's not for everyone, and I didn't seek or require their approval or blessings when I made my choice. I can deal with that.

However, when it comes to the point where it starts messing with my paycheck, my dreams, or my family, the proposition that I should suffer in silence, as I believe you might wish me to do, is sheer idiocy.

-----more------

43. Realize also...
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 11:02 PM/EST
thaduke

I'm sorry that you get a hard time from your neighbors. Maybe you could elaborate on their culture, background, etc. Whatever it is, though, as long as they don't affect your paycheck, your family, or your dreams, as we say, "don't trip, 'tata chip". Ignorant people will be with us always. It's when they impact our lives in personal tangible ways that I get frosted. So should you, IMHO.

You partially got what I was getting at when you re-read my screed. I do think it's a crying shame that we've sent a man to the moon, eradicated many diseases, made computers that basically run the world, and yet were still killing and screwing with people's lives because of the concentration of pigment in their skin, facial features, and what deity they worship, or don't worship. Do you mean to say we shouldn't think this is a bad thing?

I agree with you that it is indeed pretty sad that a man has to walk around with a sign saying "I AM A MAN". It was also pretty pathetic that those who loosed police dogs, fire hoses, and bullets on them didn't think to treat them like they were men (in the editorial sense...I thing when they went to the bathroom every morning they knew they were biologically male), instead of "boys" or animals that only deserved a certain standard of living, or a level of existence.

44. Know this, also...
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 11:04 PM/EST
thaduke

Yes smitty, the overwhelming majority of white people do not do these horrible things we read and hear about in the news. I believe you know there are shades and gradations of discrimination and racism though. I'd like to revise your "most white people are on your side" statement. Either they're on my side, or they just don't or can't exert the energy to stand in my way. There is a big difference there, Smitty. Ever hear the saying, "All that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good people to stand by and do nothing"? That's ALL of us, Smitty. You, me, Joe Brotha who wants nothing to do with the white race, and joe whitebread who says "hey...I didn't do anything to those people" while practicing unrecognized behaviors that exclude black people (and others) from his "world".

If you've allegedly "learned" these things, why are you arguing?

Your still here talking. You realize as well as I that in this racial dialogue we have in America, we've been exercising our option to "pick up our marbles and go home", as you so elegantly phrased it. Why marvel that this is and has been an option?

As long as you're not the one doing the discriminating, Smitty, why the defensiveness? Have I accused you of being this way. And what does your defensiveness say about some unresolved feelings about other races, even if they only occupy only, say, 3% of _your_ mind?

Tha' Duke

american love story list...subscribe with an email to amlovestories@onelist.com

45. Another view
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 10:31 AM/EST
ottercat

>discussions, particularly in the "She is >Black..." and "Does White..." threads.

>Without wishing to seem dismissive, it is my >hope that events in the coming century will make >such discussions a moot point, and that the >United States (note that I don't refer to any >race) will finally come to a modus vivendi >regarding ethnic issues. However, to some >extent, I find myself in agreement with Smitty-->I fear that this issue will not go away (at >least in our lifetimes).

>To Smitty: Do I, as an AfAm, dwell on racism? >Frankly, no. Do I let it color my outlook on >life? No. In my judgement, racism has been >around since "There was a Pharoah who knew not >Joseph" [i think before that--o.], and will >continue to be around.<

Typos mine. More later. Break's over.

46. theDuke
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 12:09 PM/EST

I dunno, Duke. I say "rage on" and allow as how you have every right to, yadadadadadadadada ad infinitum and you come back to impress me that you have every right to rage on, yadadadadadada.

What's wrong with that picture?

All I said (and I think you know this) is that some kids (see Board #5) let this take over too much of their lives. End of story.

My feelings aren't hurt by your passion, but you don't reach some people by upping the rhetorical ante without also upping the intellectual level of the discourse. I'm not brain-dead yet and I can tell when the volume goes up but the content stays the same.

Of course the line is that one you allude to - can people hurt you in actual fact. You say the sour old lady can not but you have every right to get angry at the ones who can.

Then what about Diane's son (Board #5) who was snubbed by his black friends when they saw him in company with whites? Was his keeping company with whites an actual threat to their families or pocket books?

47. Racism's Place in History
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 12:18 PM/EST

Agreeing with you, ottercat.

It's a crying shame that my friend Howard got called a "dirty kike" by an adult neighbor when the boy walked down the street in Owosso, Michigan circa 1948 - how short was THAT adult's memory?

It's a crying shame my kid can toss a casual anti-Semetic slur within my hearing (he will NEVER do THAT again) in 1998. He is 36, by the way.

I think it a wonder that any AfAm could possibly NOT dwell on race. It is a terrible thing to have lodged in one's mind, I imagine.

But, Duke, what I've said to you has some worth. I am a former civil rights type, I have made a career of telling the stories of the humble on this earth (black, brown, white). Some oppressed persons draw my respect for their nobility of character and sheer determination to remain true to their cultures. Some do not.

Al Sharpton does not. He preys on the worst instincts of weak black people. He props them up on flimsy grounds. Any tree which is propped up in this manner will never grow strong enough to resist the tempest, IMHO.

48. another opinion
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 1:17 PM/EST
ottercat

Looks like I'm having system trouble, too. Last posting was on behalf of my husband. Missing was that he enjoyed ALS and postings.

>Does it trouble me that it [racism] is still a sad fact of life in these United States? In truth, yes it does. Can I, as one man, change the way some groups think? No, my influence is definitely finite. Could I, one-on-one, change aperson's mind? Probably, given the chance. You see, I cannot truly speak about what it's like to be AfAm...But I can speak about what it's like to be *me*.

49. --more--
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 1:24 PM/EST
ottercat

>In my judgement (and probably yours from your CORE and NAACP days) it's a question of being true to yourself. I think of myself as a man first, Ottercat's huband secondly, my father's son next, and then as a black man.

>I don't think that ThaDuke is really that far off in what he has said--nor can I say that he is "raging". It is my perception that he is merely trying to let you see through his eyes. I hope this is not too offensive to you, as I'm certain that this was not his intent.

50. from Ottercat's husband
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 1:30 PM/EST
ottercat

>To Link: I'm hoping you don't see my observations as an attack--that is not my intent. However, it has to be said. A number of the posts you have sent were at best unclear. Most of the people replying to your postings were honestly trying to understand what you had to say, and you did say some things in them without frame of reference. We can't hope to understand without explanation, and isn't that what this is all about--understanding?<<

51. more that didn't post first time
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 3:27 PM/EST
ottercat

Smitty? Duke=affable=tiny little tension breaker joke? Didn't mean to hurt.

Duke? Memphis garbagemen's strike, not Selma. The men were kept out in the weather while white workers were allowed into shelters. "I am a man" not an animal.

52. To all
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 5:08 PM/EST
link

observe as you must,but observe me fully not partially but completely. If I destroyed something it is only right for me to replace it, if I make money from it, it is only right that I give some resources from the sources which I learned from. "You want a cookie" for doing something that you should do mr. smitty!!!!

53. Things that make you go hmmmm...
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 5:26 PM/EST
thaduke

Within a certain way, I could thank smitty and others. He "gets" most things, and at least is still here _kinda_ working on the other stuff. But you're pretty much spot on (dang...how'd that happen) when you say that this shouldn't be some out-of-the-ordinary effort--we ALREADY SHOULD be uniting and watching out for oppression and racism and nipping it in the bud.

Ottercat, thanks for the clarification.After i closed out my browser, I did think "Memphis".

BTW, I'm ALWAYS a very affable person!!

thaduke

After the group ends, continue our conversations by emailing amlovestories@onelist.com

to subscribe to a American Lovestories group I created.

54. The Gang
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 7:23 PM/EST

Duke, I sent them an e-mail and so far today I have only their regular "Newsletter." Was my e-mail to the supposed to say something specific? I mentioned our names but not anything else except we wanted to carry on.

Mr. Ottercat, you in no way came on too strong. I think Duke is correct in everything he says. He does, IMHO, have a bit of a time realizing that I get it. I get it. I get it.

Now if an old white guy like me can't come on the message board and say, "Hey, folks, I was in your corner in 1960 and I am today but I think there are SOME people and SOME ways of thinking that are misdirected in the black community," well, then, what is the use of the dialogue?

"Some black Americans are blowing the deal and, what is more, other black Americans (for the sake of "unity" or whatever) aren't standing up and saying it's a bad way to approach the problem(s)."

For example (straight from the Newsletter), what is with black people who deny black children being adopted by white families? What is UP with that?

55. to subscribe
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 9:44 PM/EST
thaduke

Onelist needs you to "register" (leave your email address, and a password that you can use at the website to see your "my onelist" page, to edit features that relate how you receive mail, and to join other lists in a snap). Once you do that, and you search through the database of lists they have, and you find one you like, you click on the name and your subscribed. Just visit

http://www.onelist.com/community/amlovestories/

and click the "join community" button. It'll take you to another screen with a description of the group, and below you can enter your email address and password. Answer the confirmation email you get, and you're off to the races. Read what you get back carefully; it'll tell you how to post messages, unsubscribe, etc.

ThaDuke

BTW, Smitty: I don't see you registered. Email me at amlovestories-owner@onelist.com and we'll talk.