Topic #9. Have you ever had to choose?
(Showing 1-40 of 40)

1. Have you ever had to choose?
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 3:16 AM/EST
jacqueline

The pressure on Cicily to "choose" brought back a lot of unpleasant college memories for me. Though I am not bi-racial, I experienced a great deal of pressure to choose. When I went to UCLA in the middle and late eighties, my experience was that you had to choose. If you were going to hang with the black "in" crowd, you just couldn't really have white friends.

There were people who just stopped talking to me (cold turkey) when I started spending a lot of time with a really funny and smart guy who just happened to be white. And when I started dating the white man who would later become my husband, it was like I became invisible. It wasn't like very many people were mean to me, it was more like I had ceased to exist. I'm having trouble articulating exactly what it was like.

Has anyone else ever had a similar experience?

2. I think you've articulated it quite well...
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 11:37 AM/EST

I don't think white people have the same experience...I've had both white and black friends all my life, and though i've felt some people looked down their noses at my choices, I don't think white people(speaking from my own experienc only) feel that same pressure to stay within their own color boundary when making friends. But dating and marriage their is pressure...I have some close relatives who now won't acknowledge my existence or that of my husband and daughter now that I've done this thing they don't understand. To them I'm invisible...and I have trouble saying, "Well, it's their problem." because these are people I've known and loved all my life despite their failings. However I would neve got back and change one thing about my life either.

3. Have you ever had to choose?
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 1:13 PM/EST

Reading Jacqueline's post brought up some memories for me. I'm a white female that went to a high school that was 70% black, where I actually started in 7th grade. So from age 11 on, I was "socialized" in a primarily black environment. It shaped the friends I made, the music I listened to, the clothes I wore, the way I talked, everything.

When I went to college it was a mostly white school in the middle of a cornfield. The first few weeks I easily made friends with the people on my co-ed floor of the dorm, most of whom where white. But as the time wore on, I gravitated towards the black population at the school. The white frat parties where everyone sat around and drank and puked off balconies were not my scene. (Okay, I am generalizing a bit.) The black greek parties with pumping house music and dancing for hours were.

In the meantime, the white "friends" in my dorm were getting more comfortable and starting to show their true colors. Most were from white suburbs or rural towns and their sheltered-ness, ignorance and prejudice started coming out.

Soon it became obvious that I had a lot of black friends and some of the white people on my floor stopped speaking to me. Then I started getting copies of Ebony, Essence and Jet that someone on my floor subscribed me too. I'd also get crank phonecalls where an obviously white guy would try to speak, I don't know... what he probably considered "jive talkin'" and ask me if I remembered him. "Ya know, I's Leroy from Kentucky Fried Chicken."

Oh god, it was just pathetic... so I guess I had to "choose." I chose not to associate with the a**holes that suddenly developed a problem with me because I had black friends. I maintained a solid core of like-minded black and white friends and tried to steer clear of the idiots.

4. There is no choice
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 2:11 PM/EST
robbie

Wow. I thought it was just me. I've found that people always want to put you into a category. If you are really black then you can only like and hang out with black people. And if you are really white, then the same. I identify with all of your stories as I had the same experience in high school, undergrad and grad school. Unfortunately because I was young and lonely, I tried to keep my mouth shut long enough to make friends. But it would all go to Hell in a handbasket the minute we would begin to talk. These people would always want to blame white people and the "system" for our "situation". They would go on and on about how this group was so segregated or that group. And I guess that they did not want to hear that half of the reason for the separation between blacks and whites (not to exclude other groups) is that blacks and whites self-segregate. And people who self-segregate cannot then talk about how they are shut out of things. And the demand to choose is just another example of this. Why should one have to choose between interacting with your own cultural group and the majority cultural group. Isn't the ability to go between both worlds and be comfortable an asset? I think that people who try and force people to choose see the ability to be comfortable with everyone as a betrayal. In fact, if they were to articulate this feeling it would probably come out as "How dare you be comfortable with them"?!!!

5. Would there have been a big hoopla had it been reversed?
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 2:16 PM/EST
robbie

Did anyone catch the two black students who said something about how the black people just wanted to be together and not deal with the white students? What would they think if the white students had said that they just wanted to be alone with other white people. And that they did just wanted to take a break from dealing with black people.

6. Choices.......
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 2:54 PM/EST

To Bethanie and Melissa,

I have to agree with you on that. I was not dating outside of my race then, but I had a lot of white friends and some people would be quick to put you into a box of white or black period. I had a room-mate whose mother was from the Phillipines and his father was black, and he, like myself had tons of black and white friends, but he was in the same box with me, marked "colored/black".

I do remember how the black students, especially women, would disowned any black guy who dared to go out with a white girl, and she'd better not have blonde hair and blue eyes.

My father, who is my role model once told me, "you can never please everybody all the time, just be true to yourself" and that is the way I see it.

7. Robbie--
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 3:49 PM/EST

One of the most interesting parts of the series for me is hearing the perceptions of the outsiders. The young man on the bus for instance who wondered if Cicily's father had imparted any of his knowledge of the African American cultural history on his daughter. It at once made me angry, and also really made me think. For I thought on one hand, how dare he make assumptions about what this man has taught his daughter, and on the other hand, I though that he is just living out the sterieotypes and generalizations he was taught by his parents. You are absolutely right..no white person in today's society (that is, if I could speak for all of us, which I obviously can't) would feel comfortable saying such things--though they may think them. It's interesting and telling that this man did feel comfortable. Knowing his voice would possibly be heard all around the country saying it. Thanks for bringing that up.

8. A little slack for the self segregators please
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 5:25 PM/EST
jacqueline

Even though I introduced this topic through a painful experience of my own, I do understand why a lot of people in non-majority cultures choose to self segregate. It's very discomforting to be misunderstood, treated with suspicion, derision or even just curiosity. The ability to tolerate such varies greatly from individual to individual (and for me, it can vary day to day). The truth is that it is easier to be around people who share a similar cultural background with you. There are fewer misunderstandings, more things that are just understood.

The only thing that I have found is that ethnic or cultural background is not always a strong enough tie between people who are otherwise strangers. There are just so many other variables. I've also found a willingness to search for other areas of common ground can offer some pleasant surprises. For instance, I recently became friends with a Ukrainian woman who is nine years my junior. On the surface, you would never expect a black woman born in Compton to have much in common with a white woman born in Siberia, but we have the exact same sense of humor. I find her company delightful.

I know that I am "preaching to the choir" but i just want us to be a bit more compassionate as we analyze these complex and very emotional issues.

9. never had to choose, but have often not been chosen ...
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 8:37 PM/EST
ethie'sgirl

In high school there was no pressure to choose ... for the longest time, the only other black kids in the school were my brother and sister! The college I attended had a small black population and there were flurries of self-segregation, but most of the black students had black and white friends. The two issues that have anything to do with color that have caused people to cut themselves off from me have to do with who I've dated and my hair (of all crazy things). When I've dated white men, people I thought were my friends suddenly forgot my phone number, my name, why they ever liked me ... When (eleven years ago) I stopped relaxing my hair, cut it off and started wearing a short afro, I had *lots* of problems. Suddenly people didn't seem to know what to do with me: I was an angry, militant separatist; I was a lesbian; I was passing judgment on all women who still straightened their hair (a black woman I'd been friends with for three years told me what a big mistake I'd made, spent about a month trying to convince me to grow my hair out and straighten it again, then stopped speaking to me altogether). This is, of course, barely even a tangent of this topic, but in my mind there's some small connection ... something about the way a black woman with natural hair is regarded. (... whether it's short or long -- my hair is shoulder length now and I wear it in twists like Cicily's)

10. Have you ever had to choose?
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 1:44 AM/EST
smoothtap

Being black I have to choose all the time. In high school I chose between hangin out with my dawgs or being in the band. In college I had to choose between Engineering students and my boys. On the job I have to choose the way I talked around white people and black people. If I said "Yo whaz up" to white people at work than it’s considered not appropriate in corporate America and affects my pay check, however when it's just two blacks in the hall way we will say "Yo whaz up" just to remind each other that we're still black and haven't sold out. Is it right? no I don't think so but if you ask most blacks in corporate America they do the same thing if they want to work in America and still hold on to some of their black heritage. So what you have is a person that has choose in order to be successful in both cultures.

11. SmoothTap
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 2:29 AM/EST
robbie

But what about those of us who prefer not to code-switch? What about those of us who are just as comfortable saying "Hi SmoothTap. How's it going today"? What about those of us who are uncomfortable with speaking grammatically incorrect English and the thought that some outward action is necessary to indicate to others that we have not "sold out"? Can I not hold onto my heritage (all of it) without trotting out this behavior? And if I refuse to do these things, are you saying that I am not properly embracing my black culture? Why does it always seem as if there is some test that you have to pass to be seen as really black. Isn't the test really how much I do for my community? Or how closely I hug my family to me? Isn't it enough that I donate a portion of my salary and a good deal of my time to charities that address the concerns of those who have not had many opportunites (including of course black people)? Isn't it enough that the people that I love most in the world are black (My dad, mom, sister, brother, and best friend)? Why does it always come down to proving something. And one more thing, I don't need to do anything to "remind [myself] that [I] am still black". I have the happy reminder every day in the mirror.

Smoothtap, excuse me for taking part of your post out of context. But this was something that I had to get off my chest.

12. Robbie...
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 10:09 AM/EST

I know that is between you two guys, but I would have to agree with you Robbie. Being part of the "black community" has nothing to do with speaking ebonics with the homies. It is where your heart is as well as your head.

True enough, we all have to interact differently in different settins, but you don't shouldn't have to carry-on just to remind yourself or anybody else you are still black. All I have to do is just grab a mirror. Enough about that.

13. to Robbie
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 10:32 AM/EST
smoothtap

I grew up in the hood and yes these people speak in slang or what you call bad English but are they wrong to use slang? These people are very good people and they have made the choice for whatever the reason to stay where they are and live life their way. I on the other hand decided that I wanted leave and see the world but I still cherish my original roots. Unfortunately I know that if I speak in slang at the office I would be viewed like you view it, in a negative manor and I would be stereotyped. I wish it weren’t true by that’s reality and it affects my success in the workforce. If I give up slang altogether then it affects my relationship with my family and friends in the hood. They would no longer feel that I could relate with them. It is right for me to go back home and try to tell these people how to talk act and live just because I chose to leave? When I lived in Germany for 3 years I had to learn the language and accept the culture so I could socialize with Europeans. What I am really trying to say is that we all have choices and along with those choices come good and bad. So as we make these choices lets make sure we can live with them.

14. Have You Ever Had to Choose
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 12:40 PM/EST
antionette

I wonder if the feeling of having to choose has more to do with culture, which varies greatly from city to city, than race. I dated across racial lines and only a few times did I experience any reprecussions from others. None of my friends or family cared. However when I, from Los Angeles, dated and later maried a country boy from the Ozarks, it was much harder. Our life experieneces were so different, and he did not fit the mould of my professional friends. He would not live in the city, we had different ideas of culture, and very different traditions. We had a lot to overcome. More so than my previous seriuos boyfriend, A, who was black. A and I, fit in our social circle together very well. He had the same educational and religious background as I. And though we may have been different colors, much of our goals were the same. What split us up was Geography, not color.

I am not sure what draws us to each other, but we should celebrate it when it happens. I have had to choose my husband over the life track that I was on. I, however, can not imagine being happier. And those in my life that realy matter are still here with me.

15. another random thought
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 1:38 PM/EST
robbie

Wait this is not an argument. Simply my point of view.

And SmoothTap, it was never my intention to say that people who speak in slang should be dissuaded from doing so. I simply want to present the argument that if you choose to do so, don't look down on me because I choose not to. I understand the pressures that you talked about in trying to show that you are still black. I have had this issue with my own family. I don't know how many times I heard the phrase "just like a white girl". The funny thing is that this phrase was half intended to be a compliment. Because let's all be honest---Ethnic minorities, in general (there I go again) value light more than they value dark. Go to AstroIndia and look at the marriage classifieds. Notice that these parents take pains to note whether their daughter or son is "fair".

I guess my point is that refusing to code-switch should not adversely affect your relationships. You just have to let the people that you love know that being black has nothing to do with how you speak, what you wear, etc. And disallow them from saying these ignorant things.

And realize that if someone whom you don't know very well does not code-switch, they are NO LESS BLACK THAN YOU!!!!

16. To Jacqueline
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 2:12 PM/EST
kusuf

This has happened around me numerous times, and not only regarding race. I once dated a women

who had had a lesbian relationship before we met and she had some lesbian friends. There was no

doubt to me that they, along with her mother who had apparently been raped and whose husband

had had a child with another woman while they were still married, had deep-seated aggression

towards men, any men. As far as I was concerned it was like smoke in the air —unmistakeable. I

pointed this out to her, but she would not listen, and only months later did she admit that these

women had talked behind my back — and for what?

It tore us apart. She was in the ‘in crowd,’ and I wanted no part of crowds whatsoever, And the

fact is we loved each other deeply, but I would not settle for peace at any price. So I walked away

and it still bothers me some three years later.

I was forced to choose by other people's pain. I felt caged.

17. robbie
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 2:41 PM/EST
antionette

I had a thought about skin color: If some whites are trying desperatly to get that "Dark Island Tan," and the some minorities value, to a degree, the fair skin; then aren't they trying for the same thing?

I have seen many euro/americans so dark that I would not hazard to guess thier genetic makeup, just as there was a friend in college that was african/american,(both natural parents), and I did not know it until she introduced me to her family.

Just a thought, as a child I wanted to be blue, like the Hindu Gods. My son has asked if he could be, "more brown," like his best friend.

18. Color.......
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 3:11 PM/EST

I think the whole alluring topic of skin color just crazy. There is so much discrimination within the black community it is pathetic! I was told, that since my ex-wife was a twin the the jazz singer Sade, that I liked my women light....bright....damn near white! Go figure. I have also heard the myth white people (in general now)are more open to lighter-complexed blacks that the real dark ones, like me. I have never noticed it in the south, since I personally have more important things to be concerned with now. Do you guys have any comment on this?

19. robbie
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 3:31 PM/EST
smoothtap

I agree, no one should look down on anyone based on the way they walk or talk. I am very glad that you are being frank and I am not taking it as an argument. What you are saying is the way things should be but they are not. We still live in a world where people judge you based on your differences and not on your similarities. I try to judge others on the way they treat me and not their talk or walk. I don’t believe everyone has to code–switch. It’s a choice you make depending on your comfort level.

I would like to ask you if you think we all code-switch to some degree in life. I mean do you talk the same way to your good friends as you do your parents or boss?

I’m not trying to disagree with you I am just trying to understand your point of view, which I hold as valid.

21. for sebastian and antionette ... and then for smoothtap
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 3:50 PM/EST
ethie'sgirl

If I have to categorize my color, I'll say that I have medium-dark skin, somewhere between milk chocolate and dark. I have been told that I am "too dark" to date (several men) and that I am "too light." I don't care if a man continually falls for women of a certain skin color. Maybe he really loves those particular women (this goes for women who show a preference, too, of course). What I have sensed from men who have felt the need to criticize my light or darkness is that they aren't really interested in *me* at all, that they are paying far too much attention to my shade of brown. And this is really problematic, whether they are black or white.

Sorry to horn in or your comments to/with Robbie, Smoothtap, but here I go ... I don't think that I code-switch at all. I've been trying to think of myself in all different situations. The only thing I've realized is that I swear a lot more when I'm with my friends, but that's hardly the same thing ... and I turn that off when I'm around my mother or grandmother just as quickly as I do when I'm in front of a class or with my boss... My background is very different from yours (lower-middle-class, white, semi-rural town) but I've lived almost ten years now in areas that are predominantly black and latino and I've never felt that I needed to adopt a new way of talking to fit in or connect. Am I making sense?

22. ethie'sgirl
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:24 PM/EST
smoothtap

Yes, it does make sense but they don't have the power to promote you or hold you back on something you have worked you whole life on. If had come from a non-slang neighborhood and moved to a neighbor hood where slang was predomant, I would not code-switch because these people would not be able limit my ability to succeed in life.

23. Code-switching. . . we probably all do it. . . but not in the same way [1]
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:28 PM/EST
robbie

Re SmoothTap's question

In answer to your question, no, I do not speak the same way to everyone. I don't work so I don't have a boss, but I understand what you are saying. It's funny that you should ask me this. I was contemplating just this earlier today. I concluded that the way that I speak to my parents is different than how I speak to my parents. But the difference is not grammatical. The difference is that I filter for my parents. My dad would have a small conniption if I cursed around him or my mom---As well he should. But regardless of what I choose to call it, the crux of the matter is that yes, I do agree that a person chooses the most appropriate manner in which to communicate with each individual. My problem is that again, I am not comfortable with slang and such. My refusal to code-switch extends to the way that I treat everyone. I feel that everyone is equal. I am no more solicitous of my professors than I am of my fellow students. I treat everyone in the same deferential manner. And I expect the same. The only exceptions, of course being my parents, grandmother and aunts and uncles, etc. I, of course, let them run all over me. : )

And another thing, what do you mean when you say that code-switching is the result of a certain "comfort level"? I am assuming that you mean that when a black person is comfortable with his or her "blackness" that code-switching can occur. Based on my assumption, I can say that I take offense because again, you are making a judgment based on a refusal to speak grammatically incorrect English. And you know what? I am extremely comfortable with myself, with my "blackness". I am also very comfortable with everyone else.

24. [2]
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:29 PM/EST
robbie

Code-switching makes me uncomfortable because I feel that it otherwise contributes to the assumption that blacks don't naturally speak grammatically correct English. And if you do, then "you talk white". Whites do not have a monopoly on grammatically correct English. And I am insulted when people tell me things like, "Oh, you speak so well." I have to look at them and ask, "How would you expect me to speak?"

I guess all of this bothers me because in the past six years I have worked with many small children from low SES areas (many of whom happen to be black) and they (regardless of how young they are) would always tell me that I "talk white". As far I am concerned, this sets up another generation that feels that it is "selling out" its blackness by speaking standard English.

Wow, SmoothTap, I bet you are saying "Geez, I asked one little question!" Sorry. But I find this discussion invigorating as I am constantly correcting people when they use the phrase "talk white [or black]" So this is always a big issue for me. Especially because I happen to think that the reinforcement of these stupid stereotypes damages us all. And contribute to people world-wide thinking that all AA use phrases like "you go girl". We don't all speak that way. But we are all Black. And should be accepted as such.

25. SES matters
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:43 PM/EST
robbie

And does anyone think that people think that this so-called "ebonics" or slang is the way that blacks speak because we have all been primarily exposed to lower class blacks? Upper class blacks do not speak this way. And I don't mean higher income blacks. I mean truly upper class blacks. By contrast, lower class whites do speak using grammatically INcorrect English. Maybe if people (blacks, whites and everyone in general) are exposed to more educated blacks and higher SES blacks, they would cease to be surprised that we come with a variety of differences as well as similarities and stop trying to assign characteristics to us based on our skin color. I say this because I don't think many formerly lower class whites have heard, "My goodness, you speak well!"

26. ethie' girl....
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:44 PM/EST

I didn't mean to digress, but that has always amazed me, and I wondered what others thought about it. I am attracted to beautiful, intelligent, and independent women and yes I am color-blind and proud of it. I just wish others could view relations the same. It would make the world a much better place to live:)

27. various subjects
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:54 PM/EST
robbie

Ethie's Girl, you are totally making sense. You should not feel pressured to speak in a certain way in order to fit in. But unfortunately these pressures are all too real.

Regarding your question about preferences. I think that we all have preferences. I won't say that I wouldn't date a blue guy 12 feet tall, but I may be more attracted to green guys who are 10 feet tall. And I think that it is obviously OK to have preferences. I guess the question arises, how were those preferences constructed? And do they feed into a need to address/ignore/embrace/overturn the existing power structure?

28. robbie
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:57 PM/EST
smoothtap

My comfort level is based on my up bringing. For me it's OK to say “whaz up” when I'm with people in my area that I was raised. I don't say it to every black person I meet just because they are black. I only use it because I was raised using it. It was ok then for me to communicate with people in my area and it's still ok now. It has nothing to do with selling out. Instead it is a cultural belonging for me when I'm around my people (people that I was raised with including my white freinds). Code-switching for me as a survival tool. It helps me to make a living and also enjoy the riches of my community. If your community is the same as your work environment and you find it's not needed then that's cool. That’s your choice and if you don’t code-switch around the children you teach that’s cool too. And maybe you could even teach them it’s ok to talk however you want. I must tell you thought I may talk different around people but I still treat them the same. It’s like you, when you talk to your family you use non-curse words to convey the same meaning as curse words.

29. To Robbie: Class vs. SES
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 5:27 PM/EST
jacqueline

I am generally impressed with the way that you use language, however I am troubled with or (to be more accurate) I don't completely understand the distinction that you are making between class and SES. What do you mean by "truly upper class?" and how is their "class" distinct from their socio-economic status? And when you say "lower class blacks" do you mean not well educated? or do you mean that they have a low social rank in our culture?

I don't mean to be unreasonable picky, I just want to understand what you really mean.

Peace out :-)

30. robbie
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 5:41 PM/EST
smoothtap

I glad we are discussing this subject. It is really good to here others views. I use slang and I still get people saying I talk white. But I also get white people telling me in the work force "you are an exception because you talk just like us". Which is just as bad because I am not and exception to the rule, just one of the many that exist. I never thought slang was only a black thing. If you watch MTV you can see that a lot of young white adults use slang. Maybe by the time they become working adult’s things may be different.

31. Class v. SES
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 6:58 PM/EST
robbie

Jacqueline- Great point.

In reviewing my posts I realized that SES and class are almost the same thing in my mind. I guess the one difference (in my mind anyway) is that being upper class does not always necessarily coincide with great monetary wealth. Think about all of those "nice" Southern families that are basically struggling to maintain those white elephants. Or the Cubans who escaped Castro and came over with just the clothes on their back and their impeccable table manners. Whereas attaining a high SES does generally mean that you have great financial wealth among other characteristics.

I think the main difference is in my mind. I think that class comes after generations and stays with you. And SES is just a combination of economic and educational indicators.

And Jacqueline, thanks for the compliment.

32. Class v. SES
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 7:08 PM/EST
robbie

And I think that I will stick to SES as class is a very touchy and complicated issue. Not like the rest of these issues are particularly simple. : ) So let me amend my former statement to say that society in general is primarily exposed to low SES Blacks.

33. talking white ...
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 8:20 PM/EST
ethie'sgirl

I, too, am often told that I speak "white English," whatever *that* is. More bizarrely, however, I have even been told that I eat "white" food! I brought some vegetarian casserole in to class one night and one of my students asked what it was. When I told her, she shook her head, "You even eat like a white person," she said. How crazy is this?

34. Is there a list of which I am unaware?
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 8:29 PM/EST
robbie

Do you guys (blacks, whites, men and women) sometimes get the feeling that there was a document circulated that detailed how we are all supposed to act based on skin color. . . Except you missed school that day? Because, I have a list too long to write here of things that I do and say that make me "white". . . None of which help me when I am driving on the NJ Turnpike. : )

35. unity in diversity
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 10:51 AM/EST

So perhaps what we need is a means to be ourselves, be accepted for that, and be able to accept others the way they are as well. In part this will require us to get over ourselves. It would help if we didn't always push eachother's buttons.

36. talking "right" and self-segregation
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 2:37 PM/EST
angie

These 2 topics are very related in my thoughts, which is good because it ties together a lot of issues in this string of posts.

First, I can only observe this issue of speaking correctly and its connection with the establishment. My boyfriend (black man; I am white woman) has been trained since birth to speak perfect grammar. (This can get annoying when he corrects my speech - because I'm a professional editor! :-) ) This often makes for amusing reactions when he meets folks (e.g., in a job interview) who he's only ever talked to on the phone. But what I think is fascinating is that when I have observed him getting together with all-black friends, they often slip into a black vernacular that none of them have been raised to use.

And this is related in my mind to the phenomenon of self-segregation, because this same group of people who went to a large, esteemed university created for themselves a group that was unreceptive, for the most part, to anyone but black students. I think this kind of thing is hard for us "let's all just get along" liberal white people. I find myself getting frustrated at being shut out, at which point I have to remind myself that there is so much history there that I have to recognize. It's very egotistical of us whites to think we always have to have it our way. That is, back in the segregation days we told blacks they couldn't hang around with us, but now that that's changed they should respond and integrate with us on command! Anyway, that's what I try to keep struggling with in my own head when I see self-segregation by minorities. And I also try to remember the feeling I had when I have traveled places where I have been the minority. I find myself scanning the room for other white people. Just another thing that calls for understanding and dialogue!

37. Good point, Angie
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 5:28 PM/EST
ethie'sgirl

What you said really rings a bell for me. I like your point about "integration on demand." I never looked at it like that, and I had to laugh out loud just now when I read that. As I said earlier, I don't really code-switch (with the exception of trying not to swear). If I'm with friends who are black, I speak the same English I learned in my house -- it isn't 100% text book, but it's close enough to pass. I don't do this out of any disdain for other forms of English. I do it because it's the way I talk. I sound pretty ridiculous when I try to speak any other way. It is, in fact, a big joke among my black friends to try to get me to speak the way they do when we're together. One friend contends that if they could just get me drunk, I'd loosen up enough to pull it off. I disagree ... I think then I'd just be slurry and silly. :) My friends have no problem with the way I talk. They would never think of ostracizing me because I "talk white." And I'm sure that has to do with the fact that they are confident and secure enough to not care.

I think I've strayed from whatever my original point was going to be ... forgive me. I had a party last night that didn't end until 5 this morning!

38. Angie..
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 7:30 PM/EST

Thanks for bringing this up, as I felt a little nervous about doing so myself. But now that you have, I feel freer to say that I have noticed this same trend in my husband, who speaks the best English really of anyone I've ever dated, and I've dated a number of men. But i think I noticed this when I first started dating him, and heard him talking to his brother on the phone..he just naturally went into another way of speaking that I had not heard him use before. Now, it wasn't an I don't know, bad sounding way of speaking, just different, more relaxed. I never had a name for what he has been doing all this time until this conversation started. It was a bit offputing at first, but after four years of living together, I don't really think about it anymore. I somehow feel that it's all a part of 'letting his hair down' when he's with his family. Anyway, thanks for letting me know I wasn't the only one who noticed.

B

39. angie, bethanie
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 7:48 PM/EST
smoothtap

I found your points very interesting. Have you guys asked your boyfriend and husband why they do this and are you OK with this or is this something that you would really like to see them change?

Just wanted to know as I code-switch and I've never saw it as a racial issue or something bad. Just something that helps me to communicate effectively in both worlds. I must tell you though after hearing the concerns over this issue I don't think I will stop but I have been giving it some serious thought.

40. viva la lingo
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 6:38 PM/EST
angie

Yes, actually my boyfriend is very up-front with saying that the reason he and his friends slip into this put-on usage is to show a connection and solidarity with the race, even especially more so since they are middle class and well-educated and need a way to show they are still a part of things. I don't see a problem with it (as a student of sociology, I actually find it fascinating). And it will probably be less and less of an issue as we see youths of all races co-opting it for their own vernacular.

The only time I see it as a problem is when it is intentionally used to make someone else feel like an outsider. And, as we've seen from this dialogue, the outsider could be a black person as well as a non-black person.

I totally agree with smoothtap that it's an example of having the ability to communicate in 2 different worlds, like if you speak Spanish with your family and English elsewhere. Having a language that links people of specific ethnicities to each other is a healthy thing.