Topic #5. White Women & Black Men
(Showing 1-20 of 20)

1. White Women & Black Men
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 10:20 PM/EST
aphrodite

I'm going to step out onto a limb here.....................

I thought that the discourse on this topic between Shanita, et al. was deserving of its own thread. This is a very interesting and when approached honestly, a very painful topic.

I have several Black girlfriends who are extremely sensitive to this issue. So sensitive, that it is hard to have a rational conversation about it without someone inevitably stomping off in tears. I also have known several White women who only date Black men. I think that I understand where Black women are coming from on this issue, but I can't understand White women who only date Black men to save my life. So, I hope that we can intelligently and respectfully discuss this issue because it is a big one.

I live in Minneapolis and this city has a reputation for these types of relationships. The stereotype is a FAT White woman with a Black man. Race aside, my experience is that African Americans and Native Americans have a much broader view of beauty than Whites & Mexicans.

Recently I posted an ad on Yahoo Personals. I posted several ads designed to attract different types. In one ad I specifically stated that I wanted to meet tall, educated, White men. Someone responded who said that he was English and that is (in his words) "a true White man." He told me that I had no right to expect "perfection" in a man because I stated that I was overweight and I should just date Black men "like the other fat women." As offensive as this response was, I think that a lot of women who do not fit snuggly into the idea of a physically perfect women, Black men may be the only option for an intimate relationship. What does everyone think about that theory? I hope that the men who are part of this discussion group participate in this thread too.

2. White Women and Black Men
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 10:16 AM/EST

Aphrodite, great subject and one that's close to my heart. As a white woman who does not fit the media ideal of beauty, I have struggled in the past with accepting myself as I am - full figured. I have dated men from various ethnic groups, but have found that AfAm and Hispanic men tend to have a greater appreciation of my physical gifts. I agree with you that AfAm men overall have a broader view of what constitutes physical beauty. I have also found that they tend to put more emphasis on inner beauty, instead of outer appearance. However, I don't think that black men are the *only* option for women who don't fit the mold. There are men of all races who are looking for a relationship based on things other than appearance, and many men who are attracted to full-figured women. Personally, I would not want to be involved with anyone who was so hung up on the physical appearance, because to me that indicates a basic shallowness of character.

I try to understand why black women have an issue with white women dating black men, but I don't think I really do. It seema that the position of these women is that white women are taking away one of their prospective mates, Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't this making the assumption that your pool of prospective mates is limited to black men? I don't understand why someone would limit themselves in this manner. Is it possible that this could be a self-esteem issue? I recall reading a post from someone in another discussion group; a black woman stated that no white man would want to date her. My question would be, why would she assume that? I'd love to hear some feedback from black women on this (men too!)

3. White Women and Black Men
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 1:04 PM/EST
bb

I had to join this thread as like laura ca says it is close to my heart. I think that there are so many layers to a relationship. I am white and my husband is black. He grew up in a mostly white neighborhood and his best friends are Chinese. We are together first of all because we were attracted to each other and fell in love--not right away. We were friends first. We liked each other's independent, action oriented spirit. I dated a black guy in highschool back in the sixties and my first husband was white. Although I have been attracted to many different men, I know I really am drawn to dark hair, eyes and brown skin. My husband says the few times he dated black women they wanted to tell him how to run his life and he would rather have remained a bachelor instead of be in that kind of relationship. I think there are plenty of white women who would want to tell a man how to run his life! I do understand black women being sensitive to the issue. If they want a relationship with someone in their own race then they will see me as taking the options away since so many black men die younger, don't have opportunities for education and career, and end up in jail--all often due to the racism that still exists. Bottom line is I agree with what Cicily said in the series. Can't it be simply about two people falling in love?

4. White women, black men
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 7:14 PM/EST
shanita

Very interesting Aphrodite! You could very well have written what you wrote on the "Change" site.

You certainly have caught my attention. Yet, after reading all of the responses, I guess I don't have as much to say. But, I will say to Laura that yes, just like some white women, many black women prefer black men and black men only. I have been one of those women, but like I wrote in my latest response at the "Change" site, it has become clear that I will simply have to be more flexible. Thank you BB for understanding all of this. And, yes I do agree that it should simply be about two people falling in love.

5. White women, black men
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 7:58 PM/EST
briles

I don't understand why black women get upset about black men dating white women. My mother is one of those people. Her brother dated a white woman and had a baby with her. My mother's only comment was "I don't really approve of black men dating white women," and she never said another word about. The lady visited. My whole extended family accepted her. I never even heard my grandmother say anything negative about my uncle's girlfriend. But, in thinking about it more, I believe that my mother's own insecurities about her appearance had a lot to do with it. She is not the light-skinned black woman with long hair. I think that she experienced intra-racism with the AA community earlier in her life, and that has affected what she thinks about inter-racial relationships, especially black men-white women relationships.

6. To Briles
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 3:01 PM/EST
karen23

I think you are right about the intra-racial feelings. It is unfortunate that some (by all means not ALL) darker AA feel that they are less than those AA with lighter skin. Those feelings are the terrible effects of racism. On the other side of the spectrum -- there are AA that feel insignificant because they are lighter.

7. white women, black men
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 6:04 PM/EST

Wow! This thread has hit so may issues that are a part of my life, I don't really know where to start. I think there are lots of reasons why Black women have a hard time with Black men being with white women. I think it spans from blatent racism, to feeling abandoned, to living in a box, to case by case situations.

For me, as a bi-racial person, I have struggled with this most of my adult life. I definitely identify more with the Black community. I have always dated Black men. Not because I wouldn't date others, I just haven't. I think there are many historical issues that create this dynamic and have been perpetuated throughout the years.

The result of this intoleranece comes from so many different places for different people. I think when two people come together, in love, it shouldn't matter what their ethnicity is. But, there is often a perception that tells Black men that being with a white women is an accomplishment. It's a status thing. Where does that leave all the beautiful Black women? ---feeling put down and devalued yet again. Obviously, not everyone feels this way, but I am trying to articulate a subliminal message that permeates through our society (and in the Black community in particular). I have had Black men say things like, "the reason I don't date Black women is because y'all are too much work."

I really think the bottom line is, it is really not for me (or anyone else)to judge who is with who and why. We cannot live our lives as victims. In other words, when one sees a Black man walking down the street with a White woman, fight the urge to take it personally and know that you are still worthy.

8. Malay
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 8:02 PM/EST
bb

Terrific post! Well said. Thank you.

9. white women , black men
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 10:15 PM/EST

I have a very difficult time thinking in terms of color when it comes to matters of the heart. I understand the feelings of black women, but resent the looks and comments that are sometimes directed toward my wife and I, just as I resent those of anyone who sees our relationship soley upon the basis of race.

I beleive that I could have fallen in love with a person of any color, it just so happened that the woman that I love is white. Who Cares!

I have a wonderful racially diverse family. My cousin grew up in the city in a black neighborhood whereas I have been in the country since the age of thirteen. We are both biracial, however she is white and I am black. I think that we both chose mates based upon environment. All of the men that she knew including her father were black. All of the women that I knew including my mother were white. I don't see that as being different from anyone nor should it be. If you were to talk to my cousin on the phone you would assume that she is black. I love to meet people after talking with them on the phone because almost invariably they assume that they are meeting a white man. This is not a case of "trying to be black or white" It is simply a matter of environment and we are who we are.

10. jimb
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 11:43 AM/EST
bb

Excellent points. When people talk on the phone to my husband they often assume he is white and sometime do some backpedaling when they finally meet him in person. Like you most of his women friends over the years (including very lucky me) have been white.

11. jimb
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 2:39 PM/EST
uhope

Hi, Jim! I have a couple of questions. I'm wondering what you mean by the statement, "We are both biracial, however she is white and I am black." Are you referring to your respective skin colors/features, self-identity or "cultural" upbringing? I've always thought that if one is biracial, he's biracial; not "just" black or white or latino or asian. And how do you allow people to classify your children? Of course, I also believe that an individual can identify himself in whatever way suits him or her. I, myself, identify (when asked) as "mixed" or biracial. I'm just interested in how other "mixed" folks see themselves and the factors that compels them to choose "only one". Thanks, Uani

12. uhope
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 9:15 PM/EST

Great questions!

First of all, I don't feel a need to identify myself. Society does that for me. As you have pointed out, you only feel a need to identify yourself "when asked". When people see me, they see a black man. When people see my cousin, they see a white woman. I must deal with society on the same terms as any other black man and face the same obstacles. I cannot change this and therefore must accept it even though I know that what society sees does not come close to defining who I am.

The initial stereotype is not a problem for me because most of us must deal with this on some level, the problem is the prejudice that is sometimes associated with it. The fact is that like most people, I would prefer to be seen as just a person, but this is just not reality. I have found that for the most part as people, (including myself) become more familiar with people of other races, cultures, etc., the more we find similarities in each other both good and bad.

It is interesting that you ask about my children and how I allow others to classify them. Again society determines this. I have children with blonde hair and blue eyes and yet by law, they are black because at the time that they were born (1981-1985) we were told that race was determined by the father and being mixed was not an option at that time.

As I look around I see more and more people who are racially indistinguishable I find more and more people like my wife who did not know until she was 27 years old that she was part black because it was a "dark" family secret. (pardon the pun)

I am proud to tell people that I am mixed although I usually prefer to give the long description and spell out each "known" nationality. Maybe I'm strange but I take a certain sense of pride in each part of my cultural and genetic make-up. I can see parts of my German, Irish, Indian, (Native American) and African ancestry and feel in some part connected to all of them.

13. jimb
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 10:13 PM/EST
shanita

I was quite taken with your openness and honesty. I can personally identitfy with the way that you can see and take pride in your multi-racial background. I was unaware of just how varied my own background was until I investigated my family tree. I am still in the process of making discoveries and each of those discoveries has heightened my awarenes of who I am and how I came to be. My experience as an "African-American" in this country has previously lead me to believe that it is not possible for my ancestry to be varied and that even if it was varied, the only thing that I was allowed to identify with was my blackness (if you will). Often when speaking with various white people about ancestry and background, they behave as if they are incredulous or turned off by anything that I say that goes beyond "black" and "slave." It is as if in their minds, there simply cannot be anything else. Although,(unlike yourself and Tiger Woods), I am not inclined to spell out every nationality that has contributed to my gene pool, I am more appreciative of me in my entirety. Perhaps we should all give a shake to the family tree.

14. jimb
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 1:27 PM/EST
uhope

Thanks, Jim! I, too, like to give detailed descriptions of my background if time allows. The trick with allowing "society" (whoever they are) to identify a person is that what you see is not necessarily what you get. For instance, a person looking at me would not immediately think I was black or white. I look basically Puerto Rican and have even been mistaken for East Indian - by Indians! I guess the motive behind my initial questions to you was the fact that my mom was always one to put "human" in any race box and never allowed any of her children's backgrounds (which actually mirror yours - just throw in a little French and Scottish) to be denied by anyone. My son - born in 1985 - is classified as an "other", I imagine - never really checked. His father is black/Filipino, so I just color in every circle that applies to him and me and let the computer blow up ;-) I'm not aware of a law that states you must be what race we say, or else. I wonder if you looked "white" with your same genetic make up would you have been told the same thing. Sounds like a "one drop" deal to me. Next year's census is going to be interesting in that it will FINALLY allow multi-racial people to be counted as such.

Another major ingredient is what culture does one identify with. Not being strongly brought up one way or another, I feel I fit in easily everywhere, whenever I feel like it. How is it with you and your family?

15. Mixed-Race
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 8:50 PM/EST
aphrodite

I've really enjoyed reading this discussion. I am kinda middle of the road in how I respond when asked what race I am. I no longer just say Chicano, Latino, Mexican, etc; But I don't really list it all out either. Years ago when people asked "what are you?", and a lot of people did, I would respond "Chicano." Then I started really getting annoyed because so many people responded "you don't look Mexican." Can you say "rude?" And, for awhile the exchange would go like this:

Rude Person: "What are you?"

Me: "Mexican." (thinking here it comes again)

Rude Person: "Gee, you don't look Mexican." (in other words, you don't fit my mental stereotype of what you should look like)

Me: "Gee, you don't look rude." (pissed off)

Rude person: "Ummmmm. Sorry, see ya." (pissed off)

Writing this post it occured to me that there is an interesting aspect of it all; only white people told me that I didn't look Mexican. Never has an Af/Am questioned my racial background. Now I don't mean that every white person has made the statement above; but a lot of them have. But I cannot remember even one time that an Af/Am person, or anyone else other than an American white person made that statment to me. Hmmmmmm, food for thought.

16. You don't look . . .
Thu, Sep 30, 1999 - 11:28 AM/EST
bb

People need to check their responses and be open to the fact that their assumptions about how someone should look could be way off base. I do think that the same response is often given to white people based on their cultural background. Like when a blond, green-eyed person (my relative) hears "you don't look Italian". A little curiosity might allow them to learn that that's how many northern Italians look!

17. Curiosity
Thu, Sep 30, 1999 - 11:40 AM/EST
uhope

A combo question to Aphrodite's and BB's responses above - and others, please join in: Do you consider it rudeness or curiosity when asked, "What are you?"? I realize it depends a lot on the tone and circumstances, but on the other hand; how does one learn about something without asking? I certainly don't feel obligated to be an instructor on racial harmony to the world, but I've never minded sincerely asked questions about myself (I loved your sample conversation, A!). In these "politically-correct" times, I think fear of offending someone may hold many people back from enlightening themselves. What do you folks think?

18. Curiosity
Thu, Sep 30, 1999 - 6:16 PM/EST
bb

Uhope, great question! I hope others will join in on this one. This is something we discuss in my diversity classes. I think the person who is curious should not only watch the tone and context of questioning but should also make the effort to establish a sincere, friendly relationship with the other person. Also the questioner needs to be willing to share information about their own background. If these things don't happen then it can seem like an inquisition to the other person. And Uhope, I agree with you--if we can't make a sincere effort to learn about someone else's background then we can never hope to get past broad generalizations and stereotypes.

19. What Are You
Thu, Sep 30, 1999 - 8:12 PM/EST
aphrodite

I should have added to my post (above) that I sometimes answer "what are you?" with "human." That gets about the same response though. Now, I answer "my mother was Danish and my father was Mexican." That answer explains why I don't fit the Mexican stereotype to everyone's satisfaction.

I do feel that it is rude to ask "what are you?" Ways that the same question has been asked that are not annoying:

"You are so exotic, what is your background?" (keep in mind that it always helps to be flattering)

"You are so interesting, where is your family from?"

"You have such beautiful skin, what ethnicity are you?"

20. what are you
Mon, Oct 4, 1999 - 10:27 PM/EST
domdotcom

i think we touched on this one before on another thread.

nothing will tick me off more than the question. i don't understand the curiosity. i'm not like a circus freak or anything. i'm a person. and the things people say-UGH!

i'm not mixed, high yellow, light skinded, heinz 57, halfbreed or any of the others i've heard. unlike aphrodite, all of my 'you don't look..' comments haven't been from one group. one fabulous man once told me

'the thing i like most about youis the black woman in you says make love to me while the white woman in you says no.' i told him i wasn't sure who was talking, but one of us was telling him to take me home.

i understand some people grew up with only the same people around them, but their ignorance doesn't have to lead to me getting stopped on the street, in a store, on a line.