Topic #4. Things have got to change
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1. Things have got to change
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 3:25 PM/EST
shanita

I watched the show because it doesn't make sense the way that color can still make or break a person in this society. Karen had to make big personal sacrifices to keep her family together. She lost a great deal of acceptance in her hometown because of the color of the man she loved. White people who choose to be in romantic relationships with black people, in particular, are not able to enjoy the priviledges that come with being white, but by the same token, black people who become involved in these relationships are even more in danger of suffering the cruelty that white society has shown black people since the times of slavery. It seems to me that nothing has changed. People are more inclined to speak in politically correct ways, but their hearts hold fast to racist beliefs handed down to them from their ancestors. This country is stagnant, frozen in racism because its citizens prefer to pretend the problem doesn't exist. And, to add insult to injury, there are sheltered groups of white people who really couldn't begin to know what all of the fuss is about. We are a long way away from resolving the problem ... I guess at least this dialogue is a step in the right direction.

2. Things change, but slowly
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 7:44 PM/EST
harmony

I think things are changing, in bits and pieces, sometimes one step forward and two steps back, but I really feel (hope) I am seeing overall positive change. Some of it is just an openness to talk about race, learn about each other. I was changed a little by the series, I think, when I came to understand that my family and our community is not really so unusual. And that you cannot tell by looking at a person, what his or her family is like or what their attitudes about interracial marriage is. I don't think I am unusual in that I sometimes assume a rural white southerner is a bigot. It's always a relief to find out that the person I have unfairly pigeon-holed has an interracial family. It's the same thing with African-Americans. I have felt more disapproval of me and my biracial children from Black women, so when I get to know someone and find out they have Whites (I really hate these color terms, but they are useful short-hand) in their family, I feel a little more comfortable with that person. I know that sounds silly and shallow. We go to our family reunion on my husband's side and see such a huge range of people who all relate first as family. At work, our environment is so sensitive to racial diversity issues that we "count" people as either black, white or hispanic and that really seems to define us to each other in some subtle way. But at home and in our larger family, we have a more shared identity. I guess the main reason I feel more optimistic, is that multi-racial people are our future.

3. Things change, but slowly
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 7:46 PM/EST
harmony

I think things are changing, in bits and pieces, sometimes one step forward and two steps back, but I really feel (hope) I am seeing overall positive change. Some of it is just an openness to talk about race, learn about each other. I was changed a little by the series, I think, when I came to understand that my family and our community is not really so unusual. And that you cannot tell by looking at a person, what his or her family is like or what their attitudes about interracial marriage are. I don't think I am unusual in that I sometimes assume a rural white southerner is a bigot. It's always a relief to find out that the person I have unfairly pigeon-holed has an interracial family. It's the same thing with African-Americans. I have felt more disapproval of me and my biracial children from Black women, so when I get to know someone and find out they have Whites (I really hate these color terms, but they are useful short-hand) in their family, I feel a little more comfortable with that person. I know that sounds silly and shallow. But when we go to our family reunion on my husband's side, we see such a huge variety of people who all relate first as family. At work, our environment is so sensitive to racial diversity issues that we "count" people as either black, white or hispanic and that really seems to define us to each other in some subtle way. But at home and in our larger family, we have a more shared identity. I guess the main reason I feel more optimistic, is that multi-racial people are our future.

4. Some Things Change - But Not Enough
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 9:09 PM/EST

To Shanita -

I think most people tend to avoid dealing with any issue that is difficult and complex, especially if it doesn't have a direct impact on their lives. Racism and prejudice certainly fit the bill for most of white America. I agree that racism is a huge issue, but I think the only way we can hope to move forward is through communication and education (like these dialogues and the documentary). Also, more people need to be willing to speak out and stand up for their beliefs. A lot of progress has been made over the last 40 years, much of it from a legal perspective, but it's much harder to change people's attitudes and beliefs. While some people will never change, education and exposure to those of different races, cultures and religions can go a long way. What disturbs me are the beliefs and actions of some of the African Americans who have reached positions of political power in this country. Here in CA., Ward Connerly was able to successfully push proposition 209, which eliminated all affirmative action programs in the state (and CA. had MANY). His reasoning was that the programs are no longer needed because the playing field is now level. Of course, he had a lot of help from the conservative Republican constituency, but it's hard for me to understand how he can really believe this. He is now taking his anti-affirmative action campaign nationwide, and who's gonna stop him?

On a more personal note, I have been in several interracial relationships (and currently am), and I have never felt I lost any "privileges" of being white. Nor have any of my boyfriends suffered the cruelty of white society to which you refer because they were dating a white woman. We may have gotten a "look" here or there, but neither of us has had to make any significant adjustments to our lives due to our relationship. I would like to hear more specifics on what you see the privileges and cruelty to be, and I appreciate your perspective.

5. Change
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 3:09 PM/EST
shanita

To Harmony

I agree with you when you say that many times unfair pigeon-holing of people is inevitable when we don't have any real information to go on. I try not to assume the worst of white people when I find that I am perhaps the only black in my surroundings, but at times I do. Most of the time I don't. I am not perfect. However, I do tend to give people a chance to reveal their personalities to me before I form strong opinions about them. But, I will attempt to address what you wrote about the pigeon-hole type reactions of black women toward you and your biracial children. Perhaps, like me, there are black women who have felt disgruntled about the fact that there are simply not enough black men to go around. It appears that if a black man is not dead, he is in jail, gay or ... with a white woman. There are many arguments about why the state of the "black family" is in such ruins, but I do not discount the terrible legacy of racism and racial hatred in this country as a major factor in the black man's demise. We are not that far removed from a time when a white man could lynch a black man on a whim and with impunity. One can only imagine the wide ranging psychological and emotional impact that this can have on an individual, a family, and a community. The looks that you get are looks of suspicion and anger. "What was she really after when she got together with him?" "Did she see a "mandingo" or a real human being?" "Why couldn't she have found a white guy? I haven't been able to find a "decent" black man in years." "What is she teaching those kids?" "She can't possibly teach them to be proud of their African heritage because she is white and white people scorn black people." No, its not logical and it is unfair to you as an individual. I prefer to take a live and let live approach to life, so I am not one to stare or give a look. But, based on the exploitative nature of the history of black/white relations in America, at times I too also wonder.

6. Change
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 5:10 PM/EST
shanita

To Laura Ca-

I am glad to know that unlike Karen in the American Love Stories series, you are not being ostracized or humiliated by family and friends for being in a mixed relationship. Perhaps that is a sign of improvement. But, you are from California are you not? I have often been told that depending on where you live in California, absolutely anything goes. I am wondering if perhaps you live in an area like this. Perhaps not. Whatever the case, I find it encouraging to know that you have had no problems. About Ward Connerly, I want to say that he seems to me to be one of quite a few black people who have begun to believe racist rhetoric. He is ashamed of the way he is perceived because he is black. And, in an effort to gain the respect of the white people in power who have previously cast him off as the same as the "rest of them," he eagerly throws the rest of the black community, etc. to the lions. I too am not happy to hear about what he is trying to do. And, on to what you asked about "priviledges" and "cruelty." Whether white Americans want to believe it or not, they are members of the dominant/priviledged group. Being white makes it least likely that you will be: ignored in American history books, stopped by police for suspicion of wrong doing, denied the right to live in the neighborhood of your choice, passed over for promotion to the highest executive offices, looked at suspiciously by white women clutching their purses as you walk by, left out of the primetime line up on free TV and, targeted by the KKK as a threat to American society. As far as "cruelty" is concerned it can be psychological and/or physical. In the American Love Stories series, Cicily and her mother received incredulous looks and different treatment when they went shopping together. I don't doubt that this hurt both their feelings very much. Obviously, either you have never experienced this because it never happened, or you never noticed it. What are your thoughts?

7. To Shanita
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 7:07 PM/EST

So glad you responded! While I do live in northern California (you'd be surprised how conservative it can actually be), I was born and raised in Detroit. I have dated AfAm men both in Detroit and Sacramento. Perhaps I have not noticed the type of treatment Karen and Cicily experienced while shopping; I tend to place little importance on strangers' behavior towards me. As for my family, they are very supportive. They don't care what color the man in my life is, as long as he treats me right and we love each other. I think I have a better idea of what you were referring to after watching the last episode of ALS (I saw it last night). I was appalled at the treatment that Bill, Karen, and her family had to endure 30 years ago, and sincerely hope that this would be the exception today, rather than the rule. I cannot imagine having the sheriff show up at my door to give me hell because of who I was dating!

On to priviledges and cruelty... I cannot dispute that whites are members of a dominant group here in the US. And I agree that many people of other ethnicities are denied some of these privileges, even if it may not be obvious. I'm still not clear on what priviledges a white person in a relationship with a black person would have to give up today. Perhaps I haven't faced some of these situations, as I have not lived with or been married to an AfAm man as of yet. I may have a lot to learn, which is one of the reasons I joined this group. I want to be prepared for whatever lies ahead and gain knowledge from others' perspectives and experiences.

8. Ouch
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 7:48 PM/EST
harmony

to Shanita:

I'm glad we are having this conversation on line, because I don't imagine we could be this frank with each other face to face. I,too,have heard the stereotype reactions of black women to white women in interracial relationships and it still amazes me. I tended to believe it was a small percentage, because it seems like such an incredibly ignorant train of thought: that any black man is a potential partner for any black woman, or even worse, that another person could presume to judge the quality of my ability to educate my children -- as if a woman's skin color gave her some right to think about my children in such a personal way. It's almost scary. Yes, I'm defensive about this.

I have strong bonds with my children and we have only rarely been subject to any overt disapproval. But any amount hurts. My kids are adolescent and mid-teen and have fortunately been influenced by adults from many "racial" groups and backgrounds. I am so proud of their confidence and impatience with those who don't understand and have earned no right to know more, let alone to question their upbringing. But because you sort of posed the question: both my husband and I are very conscious of the need to provide good African American role models and a full appreciation of the contributions Black people have made in our culture. However, my main response to ensuring they are proud of their African American heritage has been to ensure they have a loving and close connection to the members of their family who are African American -- these are the roots I care about. Are they missing a stronger link with the African diaspora? Probably. They'll have to get that on their own. I am their mother, and I can only give to them the gifts I have.

I really wonder how we will ever get past making assumptions about people based on their appearance. I do it all the time; I'm certainly not perfect either.

9. Change
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 1:31 PM/EST
bb

To Shanita, Harmony and Laura CA

I appreciate the opportunity to join this thread! Like Harmony, I think it is one step forward and two steps back. Often people don't change their way of thinking until something shakes them up or creates a lot of pain. And like Laura I am living in northern California where in the metropolitan areas there is a lot of diversity. But as she said not only do we have good ol' Ward Connerly, we also have lots of homogeneity and prejudice in the valley and rural areas. As far as giving up my white privilege to be with my black husband--mostly it has come (outside of Sacramento) in rude looks and comments (from both white and black people), and waiting endlessly in some establishments, finally having to ask for service. Traveling in Arizona, rural California and rural Georgia has felt scary for us even though nothing happened. I guess it is the feeling that there is a potential for something to happen like Bill in the series said. Sacramento seems to have a lot of interracial couples so it doesn't seem to surprise people that much. I am disheartened by the many white people (about 1/3 of every diversity class I teach)who don't have a clue and get defensive if you even ask them to consider the subject of racism. And them I am encouraged by the pockets of people in my personal and professional life who are open, and questioning, and not only tolerant but appreciative of diversity (there are over a 1000 people in these dialogue groups!)

10. To BB
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 2:02 PM/EST

Welcome BB! I am sure you will provide some interesting input to this group. It's also great to have someone else from my geographical area in the group, since I have only my personal experience on which to base my perspective. I too have noticed that there are many interracial couples in the Sacramento area, and I am sure that the large number helps those of us in these relationships to be more readily accepted.

11. harmony
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 6:26 PM/EST
shanita

I hope that you didn't find what I wrote to be offensive. I care enough about what PBS is trying to do to be frank, honest, right, and even wrong so that I can grow along with you and everyone else who has chosen to participate. I didn't have a chance to comment on what you said about multiracial people being the future. If the truth be told, there are very few people in our society that escape that designation. I take issue with the fact that many people refuse to acknowledge this. I feel that this country is in full scale denial of its own history. This is a sickness of sorts. And it has festered over time.

I hope that you remember and take with you one very important thing that Cicily and her sister said during the interview that took place after the series ended. They said that it became clear to them that they were not the ones who had a problem with being bi-racial. It was other people who had the problem. So it goes for interracial couples. You are simply not responsible for the problems that other people have with you and your family. This country simply has a lot of growing to do. Perhaps this discussion group represents the frontline.

12. laura and bb
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 6:55 PM/EST
shanita

Welcome bb! I am so glad you wrote. Your writing provides laura and I with some insight as to some of the nonsense that interracial couples have to endure sometimes on a daily basis. So very sad. But, I know love will prevail. Its hard but its not impossible. In my search for a "suitable" black man, it has become quite clear to me that I will have to keep an open mind about men of different races. But, like probably some of the black women who harmony said gave her "looks" I too have had my heart set on marrying a black man for as long as I believed that I could be married.

It has fast become a losing battle. I meant to tell harmony that another reason why some black women might seem to become snotty when she and her mate and/or children are together is because for so long black women were told that they were ugly because of their hair and features. Some black men acted out their desire to have a "beautiful" woman by being with white women instead of black women. Also, to this day, some black men feel that they are "better" because they are with white women. Black women are insulted by this. Yet, I have begun to sense that less of this is going on now than in the past. Please feel free to comment on ANYTHING that I have said thus far. Your questions are welcome as well.

13. To Shanita
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 8:07 PM/EST
bb

Thanks so much for your openness and honesty. It is good to be in dialogue with you. I think the things you said about some black men not seeing black women as beautiful because of the awful society stereotype and the idea of being better if you're with a white woman are the complex layers of many relationships. Even if the primary reason is being in love some of the things you talk about could be there too on a subconscious level--we are all so vulnerable to constant brainwashing. I have wondered if part of my reasons for marrying my husband has been the fact that I lived through the civil rights years and see myself as champion and friend of people of color. I also wondered if my husband might in some ways unconsciously deny his own people by marrying a white woman. I think physical attraction (especially on first meeting) plays a big part. Blond, blue eyed guys don't do much for me. Would you ever be physically attract to a man of another race?

14. change-things that confuse me
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 10:10 PM/EST
domdotcom

i had a roommate who never dated a white man, because she wanted to stay true to who she was. even though she may have had much more in common with white men she met through work or activies, she would date a black man she had less in common with, just to stay true. i don't get it. i have dated many men and wouldn't trade anything i've learned from any of them, because they weren't like me. all but a few were bi-racial, like me.

i'm also confused by the people who choose to only date those outside of their race. there has to be something about themselves they can share with SOMEONE of their race. to limit yourself one way is as bad as limiting yourself another way.

finally, i'm really confused on the women who choose to remark to couples they deem inappropriate. what's that? i've always thought the women who make those remarks would never date the men they attack. to think there's going to be a mass exodus of black men to dating white women is inane. there's someone out there for everyone, and chances are, he's not the one you're yelling at.

15. Things have got to change
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 11:39 PM/EST
aphrodite

Good point Shanita, re Black women considered ugly because of non-anglo hair and features. I remember looking at Jet when I was a kid (back in the 70s) and after checking out the swimsuit lady over several issues, I thought 'why do they look white?' You know what I mean, long straightened hair, light skin, thin nose and lips. Then a few years ago I was looking through a friend's Essence and you know what? It was the same thing! Things hadn't changed in nearly 20 years. All of the models were skinny, light skinned, straight haired, thin nosed women. I haven't read Essence lately, but I sure hope things have changed. Black women - all women - are beautiful!

16. Black Women's Image in the Media
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 9:46 AM/EST

To Aphrodite -

What an interesting perspective! I had never thought about how black women are portrayed in magazines, other than the women in them are as far from reality as the white women in magazines are. It's no wonder women have self-esteem issues. Being white, brunette, and full-figured,I had always looked at the skinny blondes in fashion magazines and wondered why real women weren't portrayed; I have never even known anyone who looked like someone in a magazine. It is important that black women also realize that they are beautiful just the way they are, and that the women in the magazines don't reflect real life in any way. I happen to think that black womens' hair and variety of skin tones are beautiful. As for thin lips, how many stories have you read about white women getting collagen injections to make their lips FULLER? We should be proud of our appearance and not compare ourselves to the media ideal. To buy into that image is to betray our true selves.

17. the more things change
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 1:40 PM/EST

first let me say that you folks do an impressive job of expressing yourselves with -of all things- a lot of kindness. It occurs to me that there may be two paths to 'the ideal'. One would be for all the people to accept an 'inner motivation' that accepts all peoples. The other may be sense that all peoples, with a wide spectrum of inner motivations, be accepted. The criticism of Carlton challenges both assumptions- he doesn't appear to accept all people- and the people in this discussion are having a hard time accepting his behavior-not to be confused with his point of view. I am trying to understand, in what way his conduct is an expression of his point of view?

18. change
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 4:13 PM/EST
cornell92

I do not necessarily agreee with the problems society creates for us. In a lot of situations I think we place the burden on ourselves. The media and society will always look for the "STORY" in a story. With the show, while I admire Bill and Karen for what they have gone through I don't think it was an ideal portrayal due to the problems they had. I will be last to judge, but when you pose an image like a black alcoholic who spends a whole weekend away from his wife, I ask myself who has the problem. Out of all of the couples that could have been presented in this situation I fel there were better ones to potray. We as african-americans give white america a lot of their amunition from single mothers to the alcoholism. And of course these are problems in white communites, but we are the ones who will be portrayed as the bad people. I told my girlfriend, who has had trouble from a particular white friend, put me in front of her friends family of "THUGS" (drug dealers and adulterers)and it won't even be a contest. I think once black america changes you will see more and more change. We must help ourselves before we ask for help.

19. Welcome
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 4:50 PM/EST

To Cornell92 - welcome to the group! It's great to have another male viewpoint. Regarding Karen and Bill, I don't think that you could ever find an "ideal" family for such a documentary, as everyone has their problems. While I would never make assumptions about all black men based on Bill's behavior, I can agree that it could put forth a negative image to those who are narrowminded and/or ignorant. Somehow, I don't think many who fit that category would even watch the series.

It sounds like you are a pretty grounded person, and that you are dealing with issues surrounding your interracial relationships well. I'd be interested in hearing more from you on your experiences and how you have dealt with people who are disapproving, rude, etc. As a white woman dating a black man, I'd like to be able to compare notes, so to speak. We may live on opposite coasts, but I'll bet we share some common experiences. I look forward to your contributions to our group.

20. change
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 7:32 PM/EST
domdotcom

cornell-what sort of skeletons do you expect to find in the closets of more 'ideal' people? bill overcame his alcohol problem, it's not an uncommon thing for some to suffer from. the older you get, the more you talk to people , the more you find that everyone has something. i understand you don't want him to be seen as one more drunken black man on tv, but you have to know that you were affected because it was real. that's what it was supposed to do. the fact that you felt something means more than if you would have never believed it. i'm sure you have more feelings about the show than just that. what other feelings came out from you while you watched? what did you relate to? what questions would you ask themif you could?

21. BB
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 7:40 PM/EST
shanita

You are so right about the brainwashing. Unless a person is armed with education and common sense and open-minded and loving home-training, it is so easy to become a pawn. To answer your question, I am at the point where I am willing to give a man of any race a chance. And, it is not because of a desperation for marriage, (sadly for my mother and father, I couldn't care less), but just the thought of having a partnership with someone of the opposite sex who I get along with, want to spend time with, and want to be close to. I know that there has got to be some guy out there that I would want this with. I am a loner, but I know my limitations. I am a person who puts inner peace and spiritual contentedness above all else. I refuse to be in a relationship that I am unhappy in. If I meet a man of another race that I feel I could live the rest of my life with, then he will be the one. And yet I think to myself, it is hard enough being in a romantic relationship as it, why add to the difficulty by having an inter-racial realtionship? Such a dilemma. And, maybe not. BB, if you don't mind me asking, how did you meet your husband? How did your family feel about the two of you dating?

I am sometimes puzzled by the reaction that some Italian-Americans have to black Americans considering how close Italy is to Africa. [chuckle] I personally have always felt blacks and Italians to be similar in a variety of ways. I don't know. I guess I just wish that more people chose to see the similarities that exist between the races and not just the differences. What do you think?

22. Shanita
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 8:13 PM/EST
bb

I think you are right on to put inner peace and spiritual contentedness ahead of all else. Life is too short and too complex to give that up. Sometimes I struggle really hard to hang onto it. I met my husband when a mutual friend introduced us after she learned I would be open to dating a black man. We hit it off from the start because he has such a great sense of humor and he is a very organized person. When we announced our engagement one person from each of our families was against it. My husband's brother's wife (black and now ex) did not attend the wedding and would not come to our home for family gatherings. At my in-laws home she was barely civil to us. In my family it was my dad. I tried to talk to him and ask him how he could act on prejudice against blacks when he recalls all too well how Italians in lower Manhattan (he was born in Little Italy) were mistreated. He said he thought people should stick to their own kind. My dad didn't speak to me for months until about 2 weeks before the wedding. He sent back the reception rsvp saying he would attend. When I called him we both cried and he said he was just being an old fool and the most important thing was that I was happy. Now you would think he hand picked my husband for me! They are a lot alike. What similarities do you see between African Americans and Italian Americans? I think the Italy-Africa connection is there! I agree. I wish people could see the similarities. But I also know that when white people say we're all alike what is often meant is that they should be like us. White people want to be seen as individuals but often stereotype people of color by groups (blacks commit crimes, Asians are hard working, and so on). Wow! I think I have talked your ear off (typed your eyes crossed?) As a teacher what do you see happening with children and prejudice? Do you think it comes from being taught at home? Is there a natural tendency to hang in like groups?

23. Change - Cornell
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 8:18 PM/EST
shanita

Welcome to the group! I am so glad that a male has had some input thus far. I have to say that as a black American, I understand when you say that African-Americans must clean up their act, so to speak. There are quite a few wounds and bruises that have yet to heal within the black community. It often baffles me though, how some blacks forget or choose not to remember that as a people we have had to endure much in the way of manipulation and deception at the hands of the "dominant" group in this country. Unlike many or most of the other groups of people that came to this country we have nowhere else to go. Our roots in Africa are unknown to us. We, in a sense, cannot "go home" like some people have suggested, and still do suggest. We are stuck here in the land of the enemy, so to speak.

The laws have changed, but not necessarily the people. The failure of the people in this country to communicate honestly about the awful legacy that the slave trade has left behind, has led to the misgivings and mistrustfulness that pervade our society today. Hell, this country is barely dealing with the way the natives were treated. And, you know, that is an issue unto itself. But, what I am saying really is where is your compassion? Surely if you can give it to yourself, and I hope that you do, you can give it to the rest of the community. Yes, we have a problem, but it didn't come from nowhere and much of what set it in motion in the beginning continues to exacerbate the situation to this day.

24. To cornell92
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 8:40 PM/EST
briles

What family in American is ideal...oh, oh, I know, the Huxtables. Every family has problems. It's called living. I don't mean to seem sarcastic or rude, but I think that they were an ideal family. Alcoholism, especially among teenagers is too prevalent in this country for people not to have an opportunity to see how a family can cope with it, live with it, and be challenged by it every day. It shows inner strength and courage, and I'm proud that Bill was able to share that. I had my own questions about Bill saying he was not going to be there for Karen's surgery. For me, that would not work.

As far as his going off for one weekend, that's out of how many. I think we need to remember that we didn't see every aspect as their lives.

As far as the portrayal of Bill as a reflection of typical black males...I'm not one, so explain this to me. Do you think that maybe you feel some shame there? How would you feel if Bill had been an attorney and his job required many hours away from home or maybe he just enjoyed getting away every once and awhile. I do not find that Bill's life is a negative reflection of black men. I think that more of his problems stem from holding a lot inside, sharing only through his music, and not being able to communicate well with his family. I have seen a lot worse portrayals of black men on TV, and Bill didn't even come close to those.

25. BB
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 9:05 PM/EST
shanita

I was so glad to get your response. And so fast!

Thank you for sharing all of that with me. The part about your father really warmed my heart. I am not surprised that the in-law that protested your marriage is now an ex. The similarities that I see between Italians and blacks is the emphasis both groups tend to put on gestures when they speak. Another similarity among perhaps NYC Italian men and black men is their tendency to be decked out in jewels and gold! [chuckle] I tell you it never fails. About the children, I have found that there is a lot of prejudice among the black and latino children that I have come across mainly because neither is aware of their history. They can only see differences, differences that they were taught to judge as bad or less than wholesome. Frankly, I fail to understand it. My take on this again stems back to our history. Black Americans have been brainwashed since the time of slavery to believe that their features were not beautiful. In an effort to legitimize the slave trade, Africans were looked upon as sub-human so blacks could not possibly be allowed any dignity. This is a scar that permeates us to the core. And, it will not easily be healed. Nevertheless, Latinos, (from the Caribbean in particular) also bear this scar. They still believe that white is good and black is bad. A lot of the Latino children that I have taught refer to themselves as white if their skin coloring is very light. They are unaware of their African ancestry and do not realize that they are people of color. When I teach them about their history they are sometimes incredulous and confused. But, I can say that hanging in groups is less based on race than on shared interests. In most of the cases I have observed, race was simply not a factor ... thank goodness!

26. Things have got to change
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 10:48 AM/EST

Wow, I never thought of the aspect of black women being considered ugly because of the medias narrow portrayals and dictation of beauty as being predominantly white(or light skinned),thin....but how true and horribly sad!! I've always believed the medias standards of beauty disregarded most of us,leaving us to feel ugly or fat... (Just look at how many teenaged girls have anoerexia and eating disorders)but I never really thought about how those plastic,narrow minded, unrealistic and claustrophobic standards immensely disregarded the beauty of black women !

27. lauraca
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 12:47 PM/EST
cornell92

Thanks for the respsonse and the welcome to the group. First let me say, this a great forum for many of us to express our ideas and beliefs without face to face contact. I mean that in a good way, because I find myself processing ideas and philopsophies, as opposed to ethnicity then ideas. I guess saying I am grounded is one way of puting it, although it has taken several events to get there. At 17 I lost my mother to cancer just before college and conincidentally many of the people who were right by my side were white americans. I can't say if this is a conincidence or not, but it is events like these that have helped me keep a balanced viewpoint on all people. As far as dealing with problems that have come about. I guess you can say sometimes I have rose colored glasses, becuase I just tend to look for situations and people who will accept me and anything related to me. Does that mean racism is not around me, not at all. But I do my best to distance myself from negaqtive situations. I think my past as a high school and college athlete has put me a position of acceptance by many different people. And I realize some might be for the wrong reason, but it is up to the individual to determine good from bad. My most current relationship has been the only one I have had problems with. The hard part for my girlfriend has been the fact that her friend is severly being influenced by her mother and her boyfriend and is unable to make her own judgement. But for me, I take the stance that I don't care. I surround myself with people I am comfortable with and they are enough for me. Have a good day and hope to hear from you soon.

28. lauraca
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 12:48 PM/EST
cornell92

One thing I would like to know is when you or anyone is confronted with a situation when is enough enough. I mean what pushes you close to the edge and makes you question the validity of what you are doing. A situation happened without my presence where my girlfriends cousin (although off medication) expressed his dislike for black people) though the use of derogatory language. She was clearly upset by it as was I. But I stepped back and let it go. But I am curious as to when this repeatdly happens to anyone what do you do. Have a good day and look forward to hearing from you.

29. Cornell92
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 3:34 PM/EST

Interesting question...My responses to such situations have changed somewhat over the years, and depends on the context in which it happens. If it is a case where someone is just gives my boyfriend and I "looks", I ignore it. However, if anyone I am in a conversation with uses any kind of ethnic or racial slur, I call them on it, usually with an incredulous "Excuse me? Did you just say what I think you said?" I find that the embarrasment generated makes such people think before they open their mouths, and that they are not used to having their prejudices challenged. The one situation that REALLY ticked me off was when I was visiting my sister over the holidays a couple of years ago in Tenessee. A friend of theirs was was over for a small get-together, and the subject of UT's football team came up. Discussing the replacement of Peyton Manning with Tee Martin as QB, this guy actually said "do yall' think that a black man is smart enough to be a great QB?" Ooh boy! I'd had it, and asked him if he was inferring that blacks were less intelligent than whites. He looked uncomfortable and said "Well, you know...". I then let him know exactly what I thought of his level of intelligence - maybe not the best way to handle it, but he may think twice before asking such stupid questions in the future. Needless to say, my sister doesn't invite him over anymore when I visit. Unfortunately, putting these bigots in their place does nothing to change their beliefs.

30. Things have got to change
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 5:14 PM/EST
babs

I THINK THAT INTERRACIAL RELATIONSHIPS ARE MORE ACCEPTED BY BLACKS THAN WHITES. WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, WHAT ARE THEY REALLY FEARFUL OF? THE FACT THAT THEIR LILLY WHITE ANCESTORS RAPED AND ABUSED OUR BLACK ANCESTORS, AND THAT THE SINS OF THE FATHER ARE BEING REPEATED IN THE NEXT GENERATION? PEOPLE NEED TO WAKE UP!!! I APPLAUD KAREN AND BILL'S RELATIONSHIP. I;M GLAD IT HAS STOOD THE TEST OF TIME, AND THAT KAREN DID NOT BACK DOWN FROM LOVING THIS MAN, JUST BECAUSE A FEW SMALL MINDS THOUGHT SHE WAS "RUINING HER LIFE". IT DOES'NT MATTER TO ME IF MY DAUGHTER'S GROW UP AND MARRY OR DATE WHITE MEN, AS LONG AS THE "MAN" IS A GOOD MAN AND WILL TAKE CARE OF THEM. WE NEED TO MOVE PAST THIS COLOR ISSUE BECAUSE IT IS BECOMING TIRED, STALE AND OLD.

31. Thing Have Got to Change
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 5:52 PM/EST
uhope

Good afternoon, Ladies! I'm rather late joining in the conversation so I hope I haven't missed all the momentum. My name is Uani and I am a 34 year old biracial woman (see bio). Over the past couple of years I've read much dialogue on the web regarding the attitude of black women towards white women who date/marry black men. Much of it is similar to what's composed in the previous posts. But I'm wondering - how long will people continue to use what's happened in history to justify their attitudes of the present? I pose this as a question to both black and white people who have negative feelings about interracial relationships. Like Harmony, I've always been amazed at the attitudes of some towards people they don't even know. In my dating life - my son's dad is black/Filipino but identifies as black. I was engaged a few years ago to a white man and we were considered a "mixed" couple (never understood that). My current boyfriend is black. But I've never felt any more or less racial affinity with any of them. There were many things I was attracted to, their race was NOT one of them. If the man and woman love each other, isn't that enough for anyone? I think I will get valuable insight from the participants on this list, so please help me understand.

32. Shanita
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 7:55 PM/EST
bb

I love your (chuckles)! Italian guys with gold chains, shirts open to the waist and hairy chests. Yup, sounds like some I know. About kids in school--we spent a lot of time at our son's highschool helping out. I was surprised the first time I saw the lunch time groups. All of the southeast Asian students were in the cafeteria. The black students were in the quad. A lot of the white students were at picnic tables in various places. And there was very little mixing.

33. Interracial Relationships
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 7:59 PM/EST
bb

I agree with what many have said-why can't two people getting together be just about love and common interests. But, understanding the "why" behind the perspective of black women feeling resentful of white women "taking their men" is important. It is has as much to do with the fact that there is a shortage of eligible black men as with the pain, abuse and discrimination that has happened for generations.

34. Changes-History
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 10:46 PM/EST
shanita

BB, I totally agree. Enough said. I just want to add to UHOPE that history is not something that justifies behavior it is only one way to understand why it manifests itself in current daily life. Understanding this country's history is one way that will help us improve it for the future. Ignoring or denying the lessons that history teaches us makes us doomed to repeat past mistakes.

35. Cornell 92
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 10:50 PM/EST
shanita

Hello again. I just wanted to know if you read the note that I wrote to you in response to your first message. If you did and chose to ignore it I will understand. I just wanted to know for sure.

36. things have got to change
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 11:02 AM/EST

I appreciate the dialogue here between Shanita, Harmony and Laura CA. I'm from Wisconsin, which is one of those "sheltered pockets of white people" that Shanita mentions--that is so right on. Talk about geographical segregation...

I'm from a low-income white family in Madison, I am a single mom with a white son and my partner now is a man from India who I cannot take home to meet my family due to their prejudice.

My main concern is not what people think of me and my partner but about kids because they are our future. My son has two friends who are African American and are better dressed and have better manners than the white kids in our neighborhood. One of these boys is gifted. They visit almost every day to play with my son and because their single dad has to work until dinner. We like to think in this country that if you have money, you have personal power. I can't help but worry about these two boys David and Michel and the statistics stacked up against them despite the fact that as a family they have money and personal classiness. Is there a dark cloud over these promising boys: jails, susceptibility to being victims of violence, and local statistics that "say" that reading proficiency for Af/Am's here in Wisconsin is only 17% as compared with 80% for whites in the same schools. Something is wrong with our system of education if whites are somehow learning to read and Af/Am's in the same schools are not learning to read. What is wrong with our schools and with culture that so much is in favor of my son and so much is against Af.American boys with class? The playing field is not level here at all. Maybe my son's pals will be okay, but there is something wrong with schools here if Af. American boys have a greater chance of being victims of violence or risk jail because of color. Maybe there isn't anything we can do about the prejudice of adults in our society, but we have to try and fix things in schools for the kids.

37. Change - Schools
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 12:37 PM/EST
uhope

It sounds like Carie's son's friends have many things stacked in their favor rather than against them. They are well dressed and mannered - signs of a loving family life. Although a single parent, their father is working to care for them. They have "money and personal classiness". Many people - regardless of their race - don't have these things going for them. I'll bet their dad doesn't dwell on the negatives; he probably emphasizes just how good their life is, how talented they are, how much he loves them and that they shouldn't let anyone hold them back. People's attitudes about the world at large are so dependent upon the home environment they've lived in. Please keep that in mind, Carie, if you and your beau progress to marriage and children. Help them to view their having two backgrounds as an asset, not a liability. What's great about it, not what people might think or say. When they truly believe that, no one else will be able to tell them differently.

As far as reading goes, what's wrong with taking the initiative ourselves to teach our kids? I was taught to read at age four by my half sister - I taught my sister and brothers and my son before they started kindergarten. Just Dr. Seuss's "Green Eggs and Ham", but the concept was well in hand by the time school started. It's a positive step to take responsibility for our kids' behavior and education and stop blaming "society" only as the reason for failure. Most of a person's character and values are formed before they are five years old. Start young!

38. Change - History
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 1:02 PM/EST
uhope

BB & Shanita - I agree that your statements might explain certain negative feelings. But I have two problems with that line of thinking as an excuse for projecting ill will toward another. One - what does one person dating another have to do with anyone else? A woman should have a problem with another woman's man only if that man belonged to her - individually - not to her "people". Otherwise what right does anyone have to look at another's mate and think , "he (or she) should be with me"? It's making something personal that's none of our business. I honestly don't think choosing a mate is a political statement; it's an intensely private matter.

Two - you are totally correct that no one should forget this country's history of prejudice and discrimination. It was horrifying and inexcusable. But does it have to be such a main focus in explaining one's viewpoints? I think it's possible to "let it go and move on" in a sense without forgetting it. It's been my experience that many of the very ones who mention slavery and prejudice as justification for any negative attitudes are ones who also use it as an excuse for underachievement. I think the sooner people stop viewing themselves as victims and feeling within themselves that they REALLY are just as good as everybody else on the planet, we'll all be a lot better off. This kind of self esteem is something that we as parents must instill in our children andcannot expect society to do it.

This was something that got to me watching some of the episodes of ALS. Every difficulty seemed to be blamed on other's view Cicily's biraciality when it seemed more like she was imputing wrong motives on folks - black and white. I've always felt that when you truly expect people to treat you with the respect you accord them, there is a much more even playing field. Conversely, people can tell if you have a negative attitude about them, too and will react accordingly. Distrust breeds distrust.

39. shanita
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 1:42 PM/EST
cornell92

good to hear from you. i apologize for not getting back sooner. I appreciate your message and just want to say that it is not a lack of compassion on my part. i do understand the trials and tribulations we have gone through as african americans. but my question for you is, does the past have to dictacte the future. why it will undoubedtly affect the future, i don't see why we as people who are here today can't make the best effort possible to change perceptions. all i was saying was that we don't need to encourage "the enemy" so to speak. I apprciate everybody and everything that has allowed me to be here today, but the only thing we can affect is tommorow. undoubetedly someday we might be the majority, but until then we might as well do what we can to put out the fire and heal the wounds from the past. i hope you didn't take my comment as being incompassionate, but more as a measure of frustration with how we as african americans handle our own problems. thanks for the comment, hope to hear from you soon.

40. Cornell 92-Uhope
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 10:38 PM/EST
shanita

I was really happy to get your replies Cornell 92 and Uhope. I understand what both of you are saying. I am beginning to find that many of us here really do agree with each other on many points. Its just that we sometimes have different priorities. Uhope my argument is not that the past is a justification for bad behavior, but that the past has not been dealt with, therefore it remains an issue. Just like dirt, when you sweep a problem under the rug it remains there. Therefore, it is not likely that people will just "let it go and move on." You don't just let trauma to your psyche go. It has to be worked out systematically. And, as I have said in previous comments, this simply has not happened on a grand scale. Cornell 92, you may be capable of purging yourself of the poison of the situation, and I may be able to purge myself as well, but what about the rest of the country? Without the necessary dialogue / therapy, the wounds will simply not heal which is why I see this effort as a step in the right direction. As far as under-achievement is concerned, that is a whole other can of worms entirely. There are many different factors to take into consideraton. This is not to say that these factors are not connected to uncorrected problems of the past. In fact, the problem of under-achievement represents yet another way that these problems are manifesting themselves in the present. So, Cornell 92, my response to your comment would be that it is not just a problem that blacks alone have to fix. This is definitely a joint venture.

41. Carie
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 11:23 PM/EST
shanita

Welcome Carie! I can't stay on long this evening. But, I will offer you a response the next time I log on. Take Care.

42. Shanita
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 9:08 AM/EST

I totally agree with you about the need to not sweep things under the rug. In one of my earlier, posts, I noted that communication and education was, to me, one of the primary weapons against racism. I also feel that communication is the key to working through issues (I don't suppose it has anything to do with the fact that I was a communications major, and am in the communications industry!) I don't think there's nearly enough forums for people to discuss the issues they have with what has happened in the past. Not being black, I'm sure I can't completely understand what AfAms have to deal with in this respect, but I try to look at things from more than one perspective. It would be so easy to dismiss blacks' feelings about how their ancestors were treated, whether it be 200 or 40 years ago, with the thought that it wasn't THEM that suffered, but their ancestors. However, I know that in reality, the experiences of our ancestors can deeply affect our own outlooks and attitudes.

I don't know if you are familiare with the book "Slaves in the Family" by Edward Ball, but I would highly recommend it. It documents the author's search for descendents of slaves that his ancestors not only owned, but actually brought over from Africa as early as the 1700's. This man's family were early settlers of the Charleston area, and major slave traders for years. It is interesting to read how he, his various family members, as well as the descendents of the slaves, feel about the past. There is guilt, anger, acceptance, denial, the whole gamut of reactions. It also provides some fascinating history of the slave trade of which I was previously unaware. For example, I had no idea that the Revolutionary War was greatly influenced by England's attempt to abolish slavery (which the colonies disagreed with, as slaves kept virtually the entire agrarian ecoomy afloat). Amazing what was left out of the history books...

43. Change - Whose Responsibility?
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 11:27 AM/EST
uhope

Quoting Shanita (in part): "the past has not been dealt with, therefore it remains an issue. . . Therefore, it is not likely that people will just "let it go and move on." You don't just let trauma to your psyche go. It has to be worked out systematically. And, as I have said in previous comments, this simply has not happened on a grand scale."

My questions to this are: What would dealing with the past require? Who has to do the dealing? Who or what would indicate that it has been dealt with? It seems to me that the one suffering the most has the most to gain by dealing with it. I think dealing with ANY situation begins on an individual level. Not much happens anywhere on a grand scale except war. How much responsibility for one's own situation in life is one willing to take? How many people's psyches are traumatized more by what someone has told them to expect than what they've actually experienced? The boys Carie described earlier - Nothing about their life so far sounds very traumatic. It's quite possible that if they are not constantly told that black kids tend towards underachievement, violence and jail, they will avoid those outcomes. It's not too hard to not be a stereotype.

I'm not trying to show a lack of compassion. But I feel strongly that you give away a lot of power when you blame outside factors for your bad situation and just stay in it. Being a race other than white is not a curse and shouldn't be viewed as a handicap. But people will often treat you in the way you allow yourself to be treated. Nothing and no one holds me back but my own attitudes and limitations.

44. Dealing With The Past
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 11:55 AM/EST
bb

Shanita, Uhope, Laura CA and Cornell 92--good discussion! Uhope, I hear what you are saying about individual attitudes being so critical in this complex situation. We all have to work on seeing ourselves as competent and valuable, and seize the opportunities when they come our way. AND I do think it is also about a systemic problem in our country. Your question about how we deal with the past on a national level is good one and a tough one. I think South Africa has given us a good example of one way it can be done. We have been making amends to Japanese Americans and other groups--could that somehow be done in relationship to slavery and discrimination. What about national dialogues--a serious effort with trained facilitators--similar to the discussions here. I know it has been a controversial issue but I thought that a SINCERE apology for what has happened to blacks and people of color in this country could not hurt and maybe might be a step in the right direction. There is no easy answer but I think it is about individuals, groups and our country as a whole.

45. Dealing With the Past
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 1:35 PM/EST
uhope

BB - You raise some good points. But the "how" of making things happen and the "when" of the results is still subject to interpretation. I am not well up on the situation in S. Africa, but I wasn't aware that human relations there were that much better even with apartheid demolished. You can't legislate love and tolerance into people's hearts and that's the essential part.

Will an apology REALLY make any difference? Many may have the attitude of "too little, too late" and won't consider it sufficient. Reparations a lá the Japanese interrment? I believe those were offered to those actually imprisoned at the time - not even their families. There are no former slaves living today. The time has passed for the "40 acres & a mule". And of course, we then get into who is really "black" enough to claim reparations. It's well known that a large percentage of "white" identified people have black ancestors. Who would set the standard? And who would pay for it, seeing as how many white people in this country don't have slave-owning ancestors?

Bottom line depends on how much a person feels victimized and what that individual thinks it would take to make him not a "victim". I think it would be impossible to please everyone, which is why although dialogues like these are helpful and anti-discrimination laws are essential, it comes down to how one carries oneself and what one expects of HIMSELF - not of others.

46. Dealing with the past
Sat, Sep 25, 1999 - 1:39 AM/EST
shanita

BB I agree! It is surely unwise to underestimate the power that two little words can have on the nervous system ... especially when they are heart felt. If that be the case when the words are uttered, I don't doubt that quite a few so called "angry" black people will finally be able to exhale. I don't think that people realize just how disconcerting, confusing and depressing life becomes when although you perceive that injustices are being enacted against you, you are constantly being told that those injustices just don't exist. In other words you are just plain paranoid, and delusional. Can you imagine such an existence? And, can you imagine the sigh of relief that would come when the offending party finally revealed to you that you were right all along, that you were not delusional or crazy, and that the offenses were reprehensible and infinitely regrettable? While this is cetainly not THE solution to the problem, it is an important component in the process. Blacks who have convinced themselves that whites have nothing but ill will towards them would be more willing to hear what is being proposed. In other words, an apology is definitley a viable start.

Laura Ca, I definitely have the book that you wrote about and I am so glad that you have read it too. It is very enlightening. Yes, standard history books routinely omit quite a few important facts. Yet, I want to maintain, that modern day blacks do not have an entirely separate experience from their ancestors because many of the racist beliefs and attitudes that existed all those many years ago are alive and well today. Also, perhaps my ancestors were the ones who were enslaved, raped and lynched on a whim, but their experiences affected how they raised their children and how their children raised their children etc. etc. In a sense, I am directly affected by slavery because of this. So, my opinion would differ from yours in that I feel that this point is actually quite an important one indeed.

47. Change and Responsibility
Sat, Sep 25, 1999 - 3:34 AM/EST
shanita

Uhope, you offered some very thought-provoking questions; questions I certainly can't answer entirely on my own. But, I would like to contribute my perspective. Dealing with the past requires openness and honesty on the part of both blacks and whites, because I believe that the crux of the race relations problem is due primarily to denial, desperation, anger and ignorance. Obviously, we will know that the problem is being dealt with when fewer people shy away from dialogues about race relations. There are hurt feelings, misgivings, and racist beliefs on both sides. Society on the whole would benefit greatly from the catharsis that "therapy" would provide. I feel that it is very important not to confuse personal/individual pursuits for self-actualization with the collective pursuit of the black community to be freed from the glass ceiling of second class citizenship in this country. This "victim" mentality that you spoke of is often exaggerated to be the black community's "big problem." It is actually a frequently observed phenomenon of the human condition. In other words, the victim mentality is color blind. Yet, this argument is often used by white supremacists to distract people from the real issues. It is often used to convince black people as well as white people that racial discrimination is just a figment of the black community's imagination. If you look back in time, there were many great black people who were quite self-actualized. Paul Robeson immediately springs to mind. We know him as a great entertainer and orator, but how many people know that his specialty areas were both law and engineering and that he graduated with honors? Yet, try as he might, he couldn't get himself hired to perform either job because of the racist beliefs of "the powers that be." I am sure that you can agree that Paul Robeson never played the victim, and yet he was victimized nonetheless. Although not as frequently, things like this still occur today.

48. We Are Not One Group
Sat, Sep 25, 1999 - 10:15 AM/EST
aphrodite

"A lot of the Latino children that I have taught refer to themselves as white if their skin coloring is very light. They are unaware of their African ancestry and do not realize that they are people of color."

First, Latinos are not ONE group of people. I am Mexican. Mexican is not the same as Puerto Rican, which is not the same as Chilian, which is not the same as Columbian, wich is not the same as Guatamalan - get it? We don't eat the same food, we don't listen to the same music, we don't look the same, we don't have the same history and we don't even speak the same spanish language. This really annoys and frankly offends me. I know that this is an easy trap to fall into and I sometimes find myself doing the same thing. But, please take the time to be specific when you refer to someone who can broadly be categorized as Latino. And please do not call us "Hispanics."

Second, most people that can be categorized as Latino do not have African heritage. Maybe Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Panamanians, and Brazilians (although many would argue that Brazilians are not even Latino) have some African heritage, but the vast majority of Latin countries do not. I am Mexican/Latino and I do not have any African heritage to deny, but by using the term "Latino" (see above) you make it sound that you believe that I do.

Point #1 above also refers to "Asian." I won't go through the whole litany again; I hope that you have gotten the point by now.

49. Change & Responsibility
Sat, Sep 25, 1999 - 2:35 PM/EST
uhope

I see your points, Shanita. There is a lot of healing and understanding that needs to be done among ALL American people; not just black and white people. Perhaps I can be more clear when I use "victim mentality" by mentioning that I always endeavor to refer to individuals, not groups when offering solutions. I believe it's unrealistic to expect a large scale conversion to peace and light of people who've been been bitter for whatever reasons (on all sides). I'm never asking if "your people have a victim mentality". I'm asking if YOU individually have that mentality (but please know I'm not meaning "you", Shanita :-) Until we instill pride and positive values in ourselves and our own children, I don't think it will make a whole lot of difference what someone says to us.

Paul Robeson is a great example. Certainly he was held back by the racism of the day. But he didn't hold HIMSELF back from being successful and respected even to this day. He didn't have the attitude of, "since The Man is not giving me all my props, I'm gonna sit here and do nothing". He did what he could and became a wonderful role model. Sure he was victimized, but he didn't have a vicim mentality. Racism is definitely not a figment of one's imagination, but sometimes the extent of power it has can be. What is the discriminated one going to do about it? Achieve or complain? Develop his own self-esteem or allow an outside source to tell him how he should feel about himself and talents? There are ways to get around many obstacles. The success and resultant responsibility is often the scary part to many individuals. Be brave.

50. Public/Government Accountability??
Sat, Sep 25, 1999 - 7:07 PM/EST
kann

Greetings to the mostly female members of this thread,

I've been impressed with the way people are struggling everyday with the interpersonal relationships, based on these posts. I wonder, though, where and when people are pushing for better public/gov't accountability for the deep racism that still exists in our society. Examples: our family has lived in different places and encountered:

*refusal to rent vacant housing (midwest),

*police harassment, esp. what's been called DWB (Driving While Black) (all over.....)

*student racism in an elementary school (southwest), although the teacher intervened

to dialog with the racist student (and his not-so-surprising!) racist parent.

At the national level, the only candidate I hear making anti-racism part of his agenda is Bill Bradley. Gov. Bush's occasional Spanish speaking is good, but hardly goes far enough. So my question is: what can we do to generate public constituencies for change, to hold public officials accountable (as some schools are beginning to do) for reducing and eliminating racism?

51. Aphrodite
Sat, Sep 25, 1999 - 11:32 PM/EST
shanita

I respect your right to define yourself the way that you choose to and I regret that you took offense at anything that I wrote in my comment. But, after I read your response, I could see that you are unaware of a few key historical facts. And, I am sure that if you are interested you will do the research yourself.

52. change - responsibility
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - /EST
shanita

Welcome Kann! Uhope I see that we actually do agree on many points. And, I find that it is quite easy for people like you and myself to advise people to jump up, brush themselves off and get over it. We did it, why can't they? The reality of the situation is that at some point in life, everyone needs a helping hand, some more than others. Alot of people need more than just a little help. A little help may be fine for you and I and some others, but not for everyone. In my opinion it doesn't make sense to waste any time judging that fact. I can't get angry at people who need more assistance and guidance than I did. For surely, there are people out there who have done bigger and better things than I have with far less. The average black person does not tend to have connections with people in power, or better yet the favor of people in power. When people like you they help you which is why it is often "who" you know rather than "what" you know. So, if you don't know anyone, you are simply out of luck. Many black people are simply out of luck. This is why we must be diligent about giving back to the community. Everyone who has "made it" has something to give. There is no excuse. This is a lesson we should have learned already from the Jews.

53. Shanita
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 1:35 AM/EST

I do not disagree with you at all that blacks today can be directly affected by what happened to their ancestors. That was sort of what I was trying to convey - that it is very understandable, although everyone deals with it in a different way. The book was very enlightening in this respect, as I read about how each of the slaves' descendents contacted by the author had different reactions, yet the stories had often been handed down from generation to generation so that the family history of slavery was not forgotten. I think it is very important to remember one's family's history. This puts black people in a tough situation; to forget one's history is to deny it, yet to remember it can bring pain. To find a balance somewhere in the middle is a challenge.

54. do we live in a democracy?
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 10:17 AM/EST
kann

shanita and others,

we live in a flawed democracy--a democracy that does not work equally well for people in different groups. 'who you know' is NOT a democracy. public programs are SUPPOSED to respond to people's needs and i support that.

my question, though, is this: why can't we work together for better government response, more democracy, and public/gov't efforts that reduce racism?? there IS power in numbers. we should talk with others, form movements or groups, pressure officials and laws (or reform and get new ones), and stay 'on their cases' until things change. i'm a product of the late 1960s, so perhaps my sense of hope comes from that. i DO believe this country became a better place AFTER civil rights laws, equal pay acts, and penalties and firings were dished out to harassing police/employers and apartment/home owners that routinely or even occasionally discriminate. i believe that public schools are, on the whole, better nowadays for a broad cross-section of kids than they were in the 'bad ole days'when teachers and administrators engaged in routine racism and sexism and people had no tools (laws, language) or strong organizations to fight those injustices.

things HAVE improved since the 1950s, and groups of progressive people helped make those changes.

55. Laura Ca
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 12:00 PM/EST
shanita

You are right! Which is why I feel that this dialogue needs to take place on a grander scale because when a problem or an issue has not been dealt with, how can people even begin to come to terms with it, or put it into its proper perspective? It may be painful at first, but once it is all out in the open, the pain turns to relief and ultimately to peace.

56. democracy and capitalism
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 12:52 PM/EST
shanita

Kann, again welcome to the discussion group. Your perspective is distinct and the points and questions that you bring up are pertinent. I, however, am at a loss as to how to respond directly to your questions because I was not born until the 70's. I missed the enthusiam and comradery and idealism of the 60's movements. I tend to put much less faith in the government's ability to be unbiased. I personally don't see a "fair" government as possible until individual people on a grand scale level begin to discuss and deal with the issue of race. We have all been lied to. It is time to clear the air. I agree with you that many things changed for the better during the 60's. But, I think it is important to stress that LAWS were changed and for the most part NOT the people. Sure we can create more laws to ensure that people aren't discriminated against, but racism and racial bias lives in the heart and mind. There is no man-made law that could ever eradicate that. The way we think and feel about other people governs the way we behave toward them. I have been taught to leave the judging to God, so for the most part, (I am only human you know), I do. However, I do not own any natural resources in this country, and I am not the owner or head CEO of any MAJOR corporation. Even if I was inclined to hold ill will toward any one of the disenfranchised groups in America, I would not be able to make or break their chances at achieving their portion of the American dream. And lets face it, money talks and b.s. walks in this country. The best way to show racist people in high places that we are not going to "take it" anymore is to stop making them rich. It is time to put our money where our mouth is and financially boycott the people that hurt us. And you mark my words Kann, their behavior will change quicker than you can say $.

57. Kann
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 1:26 PM/EST

It's nice to have you in our group! I just read your bio, and I never would have guessed from your postings so far that you're a community activist! (Ha Ha!) We do indeed live in a flawed democracy; I don't know if there is such a thing as a perfect one. Ideally we should all work together to reduce racism, but the forces that want to keep it strong are better organized these days, it seems. Unfortunately, I think that many people today, regardless of race, feel a total lack of efficacy when it comes to their power to influence government and society. Low voter registration and even lower turnout are symptoms of this. One of the reasons things DID change in the 60's was that people took the power and used it to make things better. This power has not been passed on to the next generations. The feeling of powerlessness needs to change, but the question is how to make people realize that they DO have the power if they take a stand? Children need to be taught from an early age that they can make a difference if they try, and that it won't necessarily be easy - anything worth fighting for usually isn't. The belief that all people are equal must also be instilled in our children, and that this equality is something that must always be fought for through the use and improvement of the system. While it would be nice if our schools taught this, I think the education must start with one's family. The things we learn early on stay with us and influence our lives and how we deal with life's challenges.

58. Shanita
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 1:27 PM/EST
aphrodite

"after I read your response, I could see that you are unaware of a few key historical facts. And, I am sure that if you are interested you will do the

research yourself."

Did you mean to sound condescending? Or, have I misinterpreted your words? I would be open to a dialogue on this subject, but I fear that you are not open to my opinion. You state that you respect my definition of my race, but you failed to resist the urge to let me know that your definition of my race is somehow more accurate or valuable than my own. Do you even see how insulting and paternalistic that is? It is these types of exchanges that deepen the divide between races.

59. Creating Change
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 11:39 AM/EST
bb

Hi All! Welcome Kann!

I was away over the weekend and exhilerated this Monday morning to read the discussion that has been going on in my absence. I think the energy level has picked up considerably which is good--now we'll probably have some of the tougher discussions (hopefully continuing to be respectful as we do). I would like to add a couple of thoughts. To Shanita, I would like to hear your information on the historical facts about blacks and Latinos. I know I could research it but I think since it is on the table it would be important for our discussion. To Kann, I was in highschool and college in the sixties and remember well the stirring activism that was going on and how it galvanized so many of us. But I think that it is a different world today. I worked on the Vote-No-On-209 campaign here in California (209 ended affirmative action programs in universities and government). In Sacramento there was such a small group of us to do so much work. The money for TV advertising was so short there were no ads in Sacto, only L.A. and San Francisco. We could not even rally most Democrats, white women, or people of color to support the cause. It felt demoralizing. After 209 passed, many groups lamented that they should have gotten more involved. I think today, there is not the kind of horrible pain that happened in the sixties. We are just complacent enough and have enough material security (even those getting welfare checks) to not want to risk losing anything. To be an activist you must face risk and loss. My experience with we human beings (I work with lots of people in different organizations to create change) is that we often don't seek change until it gets really painful. So I guess the way I cope with the fact that 209, and 187 (no medical care or schooling for illegal aliens), and the english-only initiatives all passed in California is knowing that sometimes things have to get a lot worse before we try to make it better again.

60. creating change
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 1:49 PM/EST

i would like to thank Kann for bringing up the poliical aspects of this conversation- and for shanita in perspective- money talks and and while laws can make a difference- no law is going to be permitted to pass that disrupts real power- our government will only support the economic machine that is in herently racist. on the other hand, i find Bill Bradley to be so down with these issues- it is no accident- he was immersed in black culture as an athlete- no matter how priviledged- and he speaks from personal experience- on the other hand i find it hard to support affirmative action, i live in Cali, and i lean towards a libertarian free market. huge corporations can meet any racial quotas demanded of them, but they will not stop expoiting black culture, poverty, and the world economy until we run them out of town- economically - so to speak.

61. Historical Facts, Etc.
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 3:21 PM/EST
uhope

I, too, would be interested in the reasoning behind Shanita's statements to Aphrodite. Although I do agree that there is an abundance of African ancestry among Latinos of many countries, that ancestry is not applicable to every Latino individual. And it's been my unfortunate impression that often when anyone emphasizes or "outs" African ancestry in a group of people or individual denying it, there's a spirit of "therefore, you're no better than us (African Americans)", which is actually quite a negative attitude. Why is it that Blacks (in America, particularly) have such a burning desire to claim every "relative" they can? In every other ethnicity, one has to "prove" they're part of it - by their culture, language, etc. For instance, there's a certain pride that establishes the traits make a "true" Irishman, Italian, Puerto Rican, Dominican, for example. If you don't pass their "test" (walking the walk, talking the talk, as it were), you're not one; no matter what you say. But "one drop" (entirely a false notion) makes you "black", no matter what you look like or how you were raised.

Don't get me wrong - I most definitely DO NOT believe it is an insult to be (or be considered) "black" - I often wonder why people seem to feel that way. But I also don't believe it's so all inclusive to be a veritable "dumping ground" ethnicity, either. If someone doesn't consider themselves "black", they don't have to be. It's not necessarily evidence of a bigoted attitude. I just don't consider "black" a level someone needs to be "brought down to". It's so much better than that - as are all ethnicities. Why not be "brought up to it"? That's all I'm sayin' :-)

62. Aphrodite-in clarification
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 7:15 PM/EST
shanita

If you have any questions on the subject of what "Latino" is or isn't, that is for you to research. As I said in my comment before I am not here to define you. Therefore, for me to get into a war of words with you about your current definitions is out of the question. I mean you absolutely no ill will. BB- respectfully, in reference to your question, no, there is nothing more that I will add to the subject.

63. Creating change in the government
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 7:23 PM/EST
shanita

I just wanted to say that I will be interested in learning more about this perspective because as I have previously stated it is the one into which I have the least insight.

64. Uhope
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 8:01 PM/EST
shanita

Sadly there is neither time nor discussion space for me to point out all of the glossed over or missing pieces in the puzzle that is world history. I was taught much of the same history that everyone else was taught in school. And, I knew that I was not being given the full story so I did extensive research because I wanted to know all of the things that I wasn't being told. There are countless beliefs and attitudes that people in this society have acquired about peoples and countries based on world history "American style." It is inappropriate and impossible for me to challenge all of these beliefs and attitudes in this forum. But, Uhope, if you read the comment that I wrote concerning the students that I teach in my class, you will notice that I never said that my Latino students were "black" I said that they were "people of color". And, they are. The Spaniards themselves were people of color before they ever set foot in the Americas etc. etc.

65. change-shanita
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 10:02 PM/EST
domdotcom

i went away for the weekend, and decided to read the posts to 'catch up'. wow! i found shanita's statement to aphrodite about her latino/african connection interesting. all my life i've always had someone like shanita try to tell me who and what i am. this is not a knock against someone who feels she knows her stuff, it's just a reminder that you can't tell someone who they are. they know themselves.

this is supposed to be an open discussion. you can't make a vague comment and not expect to be called on it. no one wants to look up your research. it's that simple, we can't be open if we're running to look up stuff. you said it, back it up. we're all interested.

66. domdotcom
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 11:24 PM/EST
shanita

Spoken like a true instigator. Surely, if you are that interested, then just like me, you will do the research.

67. People Of Color
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 12:22 PM/EST
bb

I thought Spaniards, like Italians, could be dark swarthy people or fair but identify as caucasian (Castillian?). Guess I'll have to do some research.

68. Shanita
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 3:18 PM/EST
uhope

Every "person of color" is not of African descent. I believe that expression refers to anyone not considered "white", including Asians, Latinos, Native Americans, African Americans, etc. I, and apparently others, do not feel it is out of line to ask you for the reasoning behind your statements to Aphrodite. You've implied that she is wrong or misled in some way and as a teacher, it would seem most appropriate to explain - not just drop a statement and refuse to comment any further. I also did not get the impression that Domdotcom was instigating at all. She was merely explaining how frustrating it can be to have someone else tell you "what you really are" based on their opinion and not reality - the old "you're just confused" bit. I've experienced that myself.

I have researched this topic and I'm sure Aphrodite is very well aware of her ethnic background. I reiterate that every Latino or Hispanic person is not of African descent. What research have you done that proves otherwise? I'm sure the good people here are not expecting a bibliography and footnotes. Just some reasoning. In my research, for instance, it seems to be more the case that Latinos of African descent celebrate their African roots even more than African Americans do, from the musical rhythms, religious aspects (cumbia, etc.), to the open admiration of African features like full lips and hips. However, their culture is NOT African American, so we should not expect them to have the same viewpoint or attitude as you do. It doesn't make them wrong or in denial.

It doesn't have to be a "war of words", Shanita. This forum was created for an interchange of opinions, information, and hopefully insight as to why certain people think and feel the way they do. To imply that someone is misinformed and not back it up is not conducive to this purpose.

69. public action influences more than government
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 7:58 PM/EST
kann

greetings laura ca, bb, shanita, patkelly, and others,

people working together for change can influence more than government officials and laws. remember those collective shaming and collective boycott strategies of recent years? here's an example from the border, in a largely Latino/a community with high poverty rates and long historical experiences of 'colonization' by outside corporations and their cheap wages.

last summer, a group of community scholars (high school seniors) did action research on four big banks. their detailed results (ratios of $ generated from the community to $ exported to corporate headquarters) showed shocking inattention to the old '70s congressional Community Reinvestment Act. small businesses face a big capital squeeze. the results caused NO revolution, i know, but the newspapers picked up the issue and STAYED with it, so much so that the bank executives were scurrying to try to show what they're doing and how they will change.

and a footnote on Props 187, 209: i hear you, bb and laura ca, on how disheartening some of these campaigns, coalitions, and opponents can be. but Prop 187 was challenged in court, and "resident" children continue to be enrolled in schools. here in texas, the 3-man circuit court decision addressing prop 209-like matters had short-term negative consequences, but a variety of schools have gone back to the drawing boards to examine admission criteria in ways that don't "obsess" about standardized test scores compared with other important factors like GPAs, etc.

good websites:

www.communityscholars.org

www.rethinkingschools.org

enjoy!

70. Uhope
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 8:03 PM/EST
shanita

My previous message to you could not be more clear. But, you are right, "of color" does not necessarily mean that a person is of African decent. But, in the case of the Spaniards by the time of the "discovery," African is EXACTLY what I mean. And, please make no mistake about it, wherever the Spaniards (and other European colonialists) went so did their slaves. Of course, there is a lot to the story of the history of the Latino peoples, and yes these stories are varied, but certainly not without a common thread. I choose not to write more on the subject because before I did research on ancient Africa, I was absolutely convinced that there wasn't much to know. All I ever heard about was Egypt and to tell you the truth, not much was said about Egypt beyond the pyramids, and the mummies. As my knowledge grew over the years, I became aware that if everybody knew what was going on during those ancient times, above and beyond the Moors' occupation of Spain, their entire worldview, and beliefs about "race" would have to change. More astoudingly, the viability of the philosophy of "white supremacy" is completely dependent upon the supression and distortion of this information. This is a major upheaval. I am simply not qualified to set it off constructively. This is why I strongly suggest that people do their own research so that they can draw their own conclusions. And, I don't mean standard American textbooks and encyclopedias alone. I mean traveling, interviewing, and primary sources as well as secondary sources. If we all improve our knowledge on the subject by filling in the omissions and getting past the misconstructions and the lies, then this too is one way that discussions on a grand scale level can improve (my most recent revelation).

71. people of color - BB
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 8:33 PM/EST
shanita

Well, I guess the only thing that I can say is that "white" and "black" in this society under the current worldview has been pretty much what the powers that be have made of it. I can't speak for Italy, but no official government, or standard public forms in Spain (at least up to the time I visited in '91) require people to identify their race. It is simply not an issue.

72. shanita
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 9:03 PM/EST
domdotcom

i wish i could say i didn't laugh at your comment. i think you took it the wrong way. i'm anything but an instigator. standing up for someone's right to be who they are and stirring the pot are two different things. i just feel that making a statement and not backing it up is the same as a hit and run...you say in your post (#70) that each person will take what they will from the information they get. don't you think you can say the same as far as your opinion on how others see themselves? aphrodite knows who she is...all i'm saying to you is to allow her that.

73. domdotcom
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 9:26 PM/EST
shanita

I have no quarrel with your point of view. But, I never told anyone in this discussion group "who they were." All of this commotion is about a comment that I made in a discourse to someone ELSE about the history and background of the Latino students in MY class. How does this logically translate to telling anybody in this room who THEY are? If there is a problem, then it is not my own.

74. Part I - Africans, Latinos, and Shanita
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 10:41 PM/EST
aphrodite

The point is that "Latino" is an extremely broad label; it encompasses well over one dozen countries and billions of people. I attempted to point out to you that when you are speaking about individual people, you should identify them with more accuracy, as we are not all the same. It is not fair to paint us with such a broad brush as to not respect our individual cultures. When you talk about your "Latino" students who consider themselves white, but you educated them in their history, you not only insult them and their families, but you lump billions of other "Latinos" into your racial definition of them as well. To put it plainly, I am suggesting to you and everyone else that you take the time to be specific when you refer to "Latinos" - we are extremely diverse in culture and history.

I am not interested in going into a discussion about the Moors and the significant impact they had on European history. Although I find it a fascinating history, I really don't think that it justifies stating that "Latinos" are of African descent. Unless of course you buy into the one-drop rule, which is a very interesting and timely topic that I would like to discuss.

75. Part II - Africans, Latinos, and Shanita
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 10:42 PM/EST
aphrodite

Now, the question is, can you respect "Latinos" and not dump us all into one pot? Or, are you so set on furthing your personal agenda that you refuse to enter into honest and perhaps painful discourse that may upset your apple cart?

And, if you don't want your posts commented on because you are talking to someone "ELSE", then I am sure that you can exchange emails with that special person. But if you post here, then be prepared to discuss your posts. We are all putting ourselves on the line here and I believe being honest with each other, so take advantage of this opportunity because you may not have this chance again. After all, not too many people would actually want to read your research, but I sure do and apparently many others do as well. Of course it is soooooo much more easy to fall back into that "you've been brainwashed" crap than to actually walk the walk.

76. Part I - One Drop Rule
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 11:27 PM/EST
aphrodite

"'one drop" (entirely a false notion) makes you 'black', no matter what you look like or how you were raised."

Uhope, I am interested in this topic. I really felt validated when I read your post. This may be of interest to you or others in the group, I recently wrote a research paper on a man named Chief Buffalo Long Lance aka/Sylvester Long. He was born in 1890 in N.C. His parents were both born into slavery, but they were both white and Indian, not African. They lived in Raliegh, right behind the Reynolds mansion. Everyone in town considered them Indian, but because they were not registered members of a tribe, they were considered "colored", which at that time did not = Af/Am, but had the same result. Anyway, Syvester recreated himself and in the process made himself an "Indian Chief", when he was "exposed" as a "negro", which I argue he wasn't, he committed suicide. It is an interesting story that I believe has some impact today in respect to the "one-drop" rule.

Further on the point, when I was in my first year of law school, I wanted to join student groups. Most of my friends were members of BLSA (Black Law Students Assoc.). It is important to join groups in law school because they are a great support system, offer mentorship, and help you academically. So, I asked to join BLSA, now keep in mind that it is illegal for clubs that have open enrollment to discriminate based on race. Initially my friend told me "of course you can be a member." Later I was pulled aside and asked "is there anyone Black in your family?" Hmmmmm, "well my sister is Black Puerto Rican and my step-father was Black." He responded, "Okay good, you can join, we just have to make sure you are Black and you count." I didn't join BLSA. Not only was their membership practice illegal, but I felt that if I joined, I would constantly be put in the position to justify my membership.

77. Part II - One Drop Rule
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 11:29 PM/EST
aphrodite

Another Af/Am friend of mine told me that Native Americans are of African descent, although she never told me what that theory was based upon. She was also "Cherokee." I have met so many Af/Ams who state that they are "Cherokee." Frankly, I am always suspicious of this statement because Cherokees were ademant slave owners (they even took their slaves on the trail of tears) and according to my Cherokee prof., and my own research (see above) quite racsist in their attitudes towards Blacks. When Af/Ams state that they are "Cherokee", if it is in fact accurate, then they are products of master/slave unions, which I am told, but have not researched were extremely uncommon.

When I hear Af/Ams (and whites too) recant their Native lineage I always wonder if it is effort to "claim every 'relative' they can?" Or, due to slavery they are not able to accurately identify the tribe of which they descend? As my prof said, if there were really that many "Cherokees" out there, everyone else would truely be a minority in this country.

What does everyone else think?

78. Lineage
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 12:24 PM/EST
bb

Sometimes I think that when the white people in my diversity classes make a point of recanting their American Indian lineage it is a way of saying "see I have a minority connection" and maybe a way to deny their white privilege.

79. Edgewalkers
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 12:37 PM/EST
bb

Just wanted to share a book review I read this morning. Edgewalkers by Dr. Nina Krebs, a retired Sacramento psychotherapist. She defines edgewalkers as people who stay connected with a spiritual or cultural tradition at the same time they are participating in the mainstream--mixed race people, gay people living a a predominantly straight world, women in male-dominated corporate cultures, highly religious people living in a secular society. Edgewalkers in her opinion place importance on cultural identity, have managed to balance their identities, and maintain continuity throughout their lives. She says successful edgewalkers are psychologically integrated enough to be who they are everywhere they go. She admits edgewalking is difficult--some people always think you're a traitor. (Cicily's experience) I think the edgewalkers have, are and will move society closer to the world of respect and justice we all seek. What do you think?

80. Cherokee
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 2:08 PM/EST

it is my understanding that the reason there seems to be many people of Cherokee descent is that while nearly all tribes require a rather direct link, parentage/grandparentage, in oder to be a tribal member, the Cherokee actually use a one-percent rule in allowing admission to the tribe. I can understand this, in terms of both a survival strategy, and as a way negotiating more funds from the US government.

81. Shanita
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 2:37 PM/EST
uhope

Quoth Shanita: "wherever the Spaniards (and other European colonialists) went so did their slaves."

By this statement, are you implying that Spanish conquistadors were "really black" and so were all of their offspring by nature of the fact they took slaves with them on voyages? I don't know; this seems to be a bit of a stretch. Wouldn't most of any slaves taken on a trip like this be male in order to be helpful on the ship? I didn't think women (black or white) were approved on ships. Sounds more like the ever insidious "one drop" philosphy creeping in. I'm just wondering how far back do you go to determine that someone is "denying" their African heritage. If someone's most recent black relative was 100, 200, 300 years ago, are they still black, in your opinion? And remember - in those days, not every slave was of African origin, either. Rom (Gypsies), East Indians, anybody who could be subjugated was fair game. The first slaves in the Americas were the natives. They didn't start importing Africans 'til they killed the Indians off. Which - I know - is a lot to get into here in this forum. I think all Aphrodite is trying to get you to appreciate is that when one uses the term "Latino" it is wise and respectful to consider the individual ethnicities when instructing them about their background. As stated, they are not the same anymore than all Asians - Chinese, Malay, Indian, Tibetan, etc. are the same.

Forgive me if I seemed to be missing your "very clear" points. I've tried to follow this thread carefully and I don't see where I've gotten off track. I think you were the one who started the initial topic "Things Have Got to Change". That's true on all sides. Regardless of one's research - and it was ALL written by humans with their own motives and agendas - change cannot be effected without acknowledging individual exceptions to what we thought was the "rule" and having the utmost respect for them.

82. Aphrodite - Lineage
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 3:13 PM/EST
uhope

Seems like you really started something in here, you Latina spitfire (please smile; just playin')! The "one drop" rule started by whites to deny rights and priviledges to blacks seems to now be embraced by blacks to arbitrarily include every member they can for whatever reason. It is SO uncool. No other racial group has such a philosophy. But, it's not unlike Patkelly's statement about Cherokee membership, I suppose. Your experience with the BLSA is rather ironic considering its members are supposed to be about fighting these kinds of exclusionary tactics. Sounds kinda like country club rules of old. Just goes to show - no one group corners the market on prejudice and discrimination. Unfortunately, certain groups tend to get away with it because of their history. A "right to sing the blues" as it were. It's all pretty bogus.

It wasn't too long ago that having Native American ancestry was nothing to be proud of, at least among whites. It seems to have become more fashionable since the positive portrayals of Natives in films like "Dances with Wolves". I wonder if it will ever be "fashionable" to claim African ancestry? Even among AfAms, there is a tendency to attribute every "attractive" physical feature to "Indian" or "Oriental" blood somewhere. What a day it will be when a white person proudly attributes their child's wavy hair or luscious lips to their black great-great grandmother. It could happen :-)

83. Edgewalkers
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 3:34 PM/EST
uhope

What an interesting concept! Who, here, considers themselves to be an "edgewalker"?

The description sounds very like how I see myself. The trick is being able to stand up and "be" yourself when others look at you crazy for your "different" tastes in music, clothing, speech, attitudes or call you a "sell out". I don't think any group is any better or worse than another and refuse to be pigeonholed. As a result, I enjoy - and am irritated by - everyone equally!

84. edgewalkers...
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 8:59 PM/EST
domdotcom

i read about this book in the utne reader and felt connected to it. uhope asked if anyone saw themselves as edgewalkers, my hand is up. since i was a kid, i've always connected with people on the fringe, and for many gay friends in school- i was the person they came out to. no matter where i am, i'm different and it's made me more resiliant.

as far as the cherokee thing goes...maybe people feel excited having a connection to something. being an adoptee,i didn't know what my backgound was. i knew i was bi-racial, and later found out i was part ukranian, irish and dutch. i know it sounds silly,but whenever i meet someone of any of those groups, i want to say "me too!" like i said, silly. but i didn't have a connection before five years ago. maybe SOME people feel that.

what do you guys think?

85. Domdotcom
Thu, Sep 30, 1999 - 12:12 PM/EST
uhope

I know what you mean about the desire to feel "connected". I'm not adopted, but many factors played into our family not having a real relationship with my parents' families. I couldn't identify a cousin, aunt or uncle out of any line-up. I do know all of my ethnic backgrounds (Chickasaw, not Cherokee!), but since my mom's family came over on the Mayflower, there's no "Old Country" connection there, and it's the usual situation with my father's slave ancestry. And we live over 1,000 miles from any known relatives. No casual drop-ins here. We're just plain American; no hyphens available.

I've always been envious of "ethnic" movies depicting close-knit Italian, Irish, Hispanic families - even "Soul Food", wishing for something like that for myself. Watching "The Joy Luck Club" the other day even set it off. We have no family "tradition", which is kinda sad. So I try to expose myself and my son to as much cultural influence as possible, emphasizing the bits that are part of our heritage. "Riverdance", Celtic music, "Dance Africa", jazz & blues, Debussy & French perfume ;-) "Monty Python" & "Austin Powers" (mom's predominately of English extraction). Foods. Discovery Channel documentaries about the countries our people came from. It's all great and we assess which parts move us the most. Actually, I really dig Latin music & dancing, though that doesn't represent any part of my heritage. But it's good to be well-rounded, I think.

86. uhope
Thu, Sep 30, 1999 - 11:34 PM/EST
domdotcom

thanks for the response. i think that lack of connection is one of the main that seperates people more than color. i find that people who come from a background rich with tradition and culture, can get along easier with others that share that background. they don't always get along, but if you're hanging out and there are people from different ethnic groups and music is playing, watch the group. most people who come from backgrounds where they celebrate openly, think nothing of enjoying the music. look at men of various ethnic groups when they see each other, they usually hug. some guys are so homophobic, not only will they not hug, they can't sit together in a movie theater! ha! and think of the weddings you've attended and had the most fun. it didn't matter what color anyone was, it mattered that they could be open and share in the tradition.

i'm sure introducing your son to so many things is good for him to feel more connected.

by the way, how much contact do you have with your father's side of the family?

87. Domdotcom
Fri, Oct 1, 1999 - 1:40 PM/EST
uhope

Yeah - it's ALL about culture. Background and culture determine even your friends, let alone your mates! And who you share (and DON'T share) those things with are often very different from who you might think. A person's race may not have anything to do with it. That's why it's so important to be open-minded with our associates. Frankly, I've had more fun at "white" weddings than "black". Probably since I can't dance, there's more of a tolerance for goofy spazziness at "white" weddings ;-). I can't handle the pressure! But I had a BALL at the Hispanic weddings I've gone to.

As mentioned above, we haven't had any real contact with either of our parents' families. My father is the youngest child - his next oldest sibling is 10 years older than he. He has only brothers, his mother died before I was born. His father used to live with us 'til I was 15, then he moved back to Florida and died not too long after. Unfortunately, due to physical impairment, my grandfather was unable to speak clearly enough to relay any family stories, etc. Even more unfortunately, my father is rather anti-social, even with his family, and never saw the need to maintain relationships with his family - even for his kids' sake. So the last time I saw anyone on his side (my grandfather's sister & brother), I was about 10 years old. I just met my mother's mom for the first time in 1991. She was very cool (in the good way!), but I have the feeling that the time to really cultivate close family ties is throughout youth. Otherwise, even blood kin just feel like your everyday strangers. Coupled with long distance and latent guilt feelings (on all sides), it hasn't really seemed worth it to campaign for family reunions at this stage in the game. For me, it's more important to cultivate good relations with my sister and brothers, parents and my son - my immediate family. One does what one can . . .

88. culturally estranged
Fri, Oct 1, 1999 - 5:48 PM/EST

here's another one, i know two of my grandparents immigrated, at least one other grandparent was the child of immigrant's - all Irish. so what's happens when I move to SF, a town with a very large Irish population? nothing! I don't hang with Irish folks- I quess I could but I always seem to find myself living and working around wierd artists, and and in black neihborhoods. I don't really try to understand it, it may have to do with being the second generation. the first always works so hard to assimilate that their kids are left trying to figure out just what the ancestor's culture was. I do teach my kid her 'Irishness' and the culture as I've been given it. It's been a long time since I felt comfortable in the mainstream, so I guess I too 'hang with the fringe'.

89. Uhope - Aphrodite
Sat, Oct 2, 1999 - 8:08 PM/EST
shanita

"Of African descent" is neither an opinion or a rule. It is a statement of fact. If you buy into the white suprmacist notion of the "one drop rule," then that is entirely your choice. This rule of white purity paranoia has nothing to do with the fact of being "of African descent." Aphrodite, I find the venom with which you treat the notion of being "of African descent" to be quite curious. Uhope seems to think that I am not acknowledging the fact that there are many different Latino peoples. I am surprised by that comment considering that I made that point "very clear" in even the original comment that you first found to be displeasing. I can't help but shake my head when I encounter people who say such glowing things about black people and how they have black friends etc. yet, when the idea is put forth that there could be black people in their family line, they become red-faced and fighting mad. Perhaps I shouldn't be so surprised.

90. Trail of Tears
Sun, Oct 3, 1999 - 10:14 AM/EST
shanita

By the time of the Indian Removal Act of 1830, the

Cherokee had translated the Bible into their own language and some were considered by whites to be "highly educated." I don't doubt that some of these Cherokee elite adopted many of the same attitudes, beliefs and behaviors as the colonists. This makes it not impossible that some Cherokee held slaves. Yet, there is evidence that this certainly did not characterize the Cherokee tribe as a whole. According to Cherokee oral history as well as the personal diaries of various colonists that lived at that time, the Cherokee were known for giving refuge to people of other ethnic groups. These groups were described as "Black Dutch," Spanish, Creole, and Black (perhaps meaning African without obvious mixture). Also, the Cherokee were one of the few Native American tribes that actively encouraged marriage with "non-Indians." Therefore, it is higly likely that blacks and other people of color were found walking alongside the Cherokee on the "trail of tears" primarily because they too had lost their beloved homes.

91. black indians
Mon, Oct 4, 1999 - 2:35 PM/EST

i have also learned a great lesson from the black indians of New Orleans, part of the Mardi Gras tradition and certainly related to Shanita's post. has anyoen ever witnessed this? i believe it occurs in the black neihborhoods with each one identifying themselves with an'indian' identity, complete with tribal roles, amazing headresses, songs (check the Neville Bros.), etc. this is another example of cultural cross-pollination rather than exploitation. another kind of survival mechanism, that while it doesn't seek to 'preserve' a distant older culture, it does pay respect and allow two cultures that have been historically oppressed to find a new kind of 'shared' cultural experience.

more thoughts on my 'of Irish descent' - because of a history of oppression in europe- and even in some ways by the Catholic church in Ireland- I tend to look way back to the Celtic history of ireland, the Celtic tribal cultures of northern europe being almost completely opposite what most people think of when talking of european culture. here is where i find connections that circumvent the brutal oppression by the europeans in america. I need to do this because to be honest I don't really identify as part of the 'dominant culture'. while certainly being white in america equals a kind of priviledge, my point is that there are avenues, experiences and histories that even white people can look at within their cultural experience that don't require historical dominance over other peoples.

92. black indians
Mon, Oct 4, 1999 - 2:38 PM/EST

i have also learned a great lesson from the black indians of New Orleans, part of the Mardi Gras tradition and certainly related to Shanita's post. has anyoen ever witnessed this? i believe it occurs in the black neihborhoods with each one identifying themselves with an'indian' identity, complete with tribal roles, amazing headresses, songs (check the Neville Bros.), etc. this is another example of cultural cross-pollination rather than exploitation. another kind of survival mechanism, that while it doesn't seek to 'preserve' a distant older culture, it does pay respect and allow two cultures that have been historically oppressed to find a new kind of 'shared' cultural experience.

more thoughts on my 'of Irish descent' - because of a history of oppression in europe- and even in some ways by the Catholic church in Ireland- I tend to look way back to the Celtic history of ireland, the Celtic tribal cultures of northern europe being almost completely opposite what most people think of when talking of european culture. here is where i find connections that circumvent the brutal oppression by the europeans in america. I need to do this because to be honest I don't really identify as part of the 'dominant culture'. while certainly being white in america equals a kind of priviledge, my point is that there are avenues, experiences and histories that even white people can look at within their cultural experience that don't require historical dominance over other peoples.

93. test
Mon, Oct 4, 1999 - 4:52 PM/EST
uhope

i've been trying to post all day . . . no success

94. Shanita
Mon, Oct 4, 1999 - 5:04 PM/EST
uhope

Has this been a series of misunderstandings? In regard to the "Latino students" comments; a lot of this controversy might have been quelled by mentioning the specific background of these kids. You have valid points if your students are of Puerto Rican, Cuban, Belizean, etc. heritage - heavy African ancestry. But even in those countries, it may not apply to every citizen, no more than the fact that the U.S. held slaves makes every American of African ancestry. As Aphrodite pointed out, the term "Latino" encompasses a huge diversity of peoples - like Asian - and African ancestry is simply NOT "a statement of fact" for every Latino person.

Not only white supremacists cling to the "one drop rule". It seems that more AfAms support it by claiming if you have ANY black ancestry, you are black; regardless of one's dominant ethnicities. Who else says, "You're just Black", You're trying to deny your "Blackness", and so forth, to anyone who is discovered to have a black great, great grandfather? Most white people don't even care. In fact, the strongest opponents to having a multiracial category on the census have been AfAms, with the feeling that if one is given the opportunity to accurately classify one's background, the "AfAm population" will suffer a mass decrease. I've never checked only one box on any form, so I can't say how the government classifies me. But if in the 2000 census I will be classified as "biracial" instead of one or the other, won't that finally be a true count? Regardless of the numbers?

Please don't think it's bitter denial when someone just wants to have their ethnic identity respected. I suspect Aphrodite is sensitive to folks implying they know "what she really is" when I'm sure SHE really knows - that's why your seemingly blanket usage of the term "Latino" was an issue for her. It's like a non-black person stating blanket factoids about black people; not acknowledging there are as many exceptions to rules as there are snowflakes.

95. finding your cultural way
Mon, Oct 4, 1999 - 10:06 PM/EST
domdotcom

i will be the last person to think i know all of the answers to people finding comfort. i agree that if you are exposed to different things as a kid, you adjust easier as an adult.

as i learn more about me, i also find that i need to give myself a break. there's always going to be someone who won't get me because i can't be pegged in any racial stereotype. there will be people who try to tell me how i should look and all. but i have to know that i am who i am and that's the only thing i can give. a few years ago i was in seattle and went to snoqualmie falls (please forgive me, i know i've butchered it.) i had a spiritual epiphany while watching the falls. i know that god made the falls and i can see how beautiful it is. and since i know that god made me, why can't i see the same beauty in myself and others? and that's when i began to accept myself. i think that we multi-cultural people have to make our own way, our own culture, whatever it is. maybe we have to learn about all of the things that made us, even if they come from the old south or italy. we need to start believing that it does matter who we are-not what we look like, or how anyone else will see us. i get a little hot whenever someone tries to tell me what i am, and i still have to work on that one, but i'll get there.

so, uhope will find comfort someday at black weddings and patkelly will find a way to teach her daughter about being irish. but we can't put that pressure on ourselves as we find the way to do it.

96. uhope
Mon, Oct 4, 1999 - 11:55 PM/EST
shanita

If the real issue was simply the specific background of the students in my class, then why wasn't that question asked? Words and ideas like " bitter denial," "latino = black," "she doesn't know who she is" never showed up in my comments. Yet, for some reason, this is exactly the conclusion that was reached. In my opinion, the explanation that you offered misses the core of the problem. The very last thing that I will say concerning the history of the Latino people is that African ancestry is highly likely particularly if the Latino person claims to be of Spanish descent (comment #64&70). Where does this information come from? This information comes from books and people. Which people? Mexican people, Venezuelan people, Spanish people, Argentinian people, Columbian people ... who have done their own research. But, you know Uhope, I have no reason to be surprised by negative reaction to the "of African descent" issue. The "one drop rule" among other things has caused people to feel stigmatized by "blackness." Black people embrace the "one drop rule" primarily because they were forced to accept it since the beginning. Many actually believe that what they have been told is true. Nevertheless, I don't doubt that to some extent nowadays, there is some political motivation for pushing this belief. And, it is certainly a campaign worthy of investigation. In response to the last thing you said in your comment,(knowing that I have a wealth of information about the history of my family, knowing that I have a decent understanding of world history, knowing that I respect and love myself in my multi-racial entirety), if a non-black person stated "blanket factoids" about black people, I would either smile and leave the person in blissful ignorance, or give the person the missing information. For I too have been ignorant about the history and culture of black people. That is why I went out and did the research.

97. domdotcom
Tue, Oct 5, 1999 - /EST
shanita

I was very touched by what you wrote. I think you are so right.

98. Domdotcom
Tue, Oct 5, 1999 - 11:45 AM/EST
uhope

What a beautiful comment! Being comfortable with ourselves is a continuing saga throughout life; regardless of who or what we are. The progress comes when one recognizes progress needs to be made. Keep up the good work - I hope I can!

I can see Snoqualmie Falls as being a place for an epiphany - I've been to Seattle but not the Falls, but there's a gorgeous lodge there that looks over those Falls - Salish Lodge (I just got a brochure). It is my dream to have a honeymoon there - should I get a honeymoon.

As for comfort at black weddings - if I can EVER keep up with the multitudinous variations of the Electric Slide and learn how to Step, I'll be home free! ;-)

99. Shanita
Tue, Oct 5, 1999 - 12:56 PM/EST
uhope

Thanks for your response. First, I hope you don't think that I attributed the phrases you quoted above to your posts. Those are my own - at least the "bitter denial" one. I, also, do not instigate. Regardless, I was just trying to get your position on the matter clear in my own mind.

I presume you're not the type of person who uses the "if you're part black, you're JUST black" philosophy - so that's good. I don't think that denying African ancestry is the same as having a "negative reaction" towards it. It just might not be true of the individuals it's being laid upon. For example, my denying any Asian ancestry (though insisted upon by some East Indians of my acquaintance) is not the same as being negative towards the idea (I wish I had the hair, quite frankly :-) ). It's just not true of me, no matter what I look like.

The last thing I'll say on the matter is although I totally agree with your findings about African descendents in all the countries you mentioned - and more - (the slaves escaped to EVERYWHERE!), please leave it open that you may very well come upon a Latino-identified individual who is not of African descent. You DID say that it was only "highly likely" - that doesn't mean all-inclusive. All I'm saying is to respect that about them - and credit them with having the knowledge about themselves that you have about yourself.

Peace

U.

100. Uhope
Tue, Oct 5, 1999 - 6:43 PM/EST
shanita

I really appreciate the peaceful way that you have approached me even during times when we did not agree. And, I understand the message that you have been trying to get across. But, I want it to be made perfectly clear that a person can say what they want to about who they are, the facts about their ancestry and world history still remain. If that person has not done an extensive inquiry concerning their ancestry and the history of their people, then how much do they really know? It is not enough to say, "I know who I am." You do not know until you know. Nevertheless, I respect the right of any person to define themselves the way that they see fit. I have already said that. Nowhere in any of my comments did I debate or attack anyone's personal definition of themselves. This back and forth has been primarily "much ado" about nothing. But, I am concerned that this hypersensitivity has everything to do with this country's inability to talk truthfully about race and the fact that race is simply not an issue unless the governing body and citizenry of a society choose to make it an issue.