TV Series Group 3: the tv show...

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Topic #2. the tv show...
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1. the tv show...
Tue, Sep 14, 1999 - 12:11 PM/EST
sergio

i first heard about the tv show through a story on public radio.. being an ethnic type guy who is invovled with a white female, i listened with mild interest.. then, i heard the bill sims was a guitar player.. my interest lifted a little..

then, i heard him play both simon and garfunkel and keb mo.. the show had to be cool, so i watched the first two nights.. i was hooked..

i will probably be only able to watch it on a hit and miss basis for the rest of the week..

...sergio

2. the tv show
Tue, Sep 14, 1999 - 1:17 PM/EST
terry

I knew the show was coming on television because of advertisements. The first 4 hours I have enjoyed very much. The parents in my opinion have done a great job in raising their children, however the children have been sheltered from the realities of the world. It was sad for me to see Cicily being put down by people of color. Their reasoning I didn't understand. They didn't seem to have a tolerance for difference among their own kind.

The one comment 'she likes telling people her mother is white' I didn't understand. My take on the situation was one where a child is proud of their parent.

3. the tv show
Tue, Sep 14, 1999 - 1:34 PM/EST

By chance I watched the show. The parents hooked me. I come from a similar background. I think the parents have done a great job also. But as far as the girls being sheltered. They live in Queens, NY. I find it hard to believe that they did not see any other family like their own.

4. the tv show
Tue, Sep 14, 1999 - 2:17 PM/EST
viennes

Being a father of 6 mixed children black/white,I can understand why the parents would try to shelter them the best they could,my ex-wife did and still does preach family is everything,it is a haven when the pressure becomes to great at times.

I found that blacks are kinder then whites when it comes to mixed children,what are you're experiences....

5. the tv show..
Tue, Sep 14, 1999 - 3:34 PM/EST
mrhys1

as far as experiences with which race is more open to our multiracial child i would have to say both equally-so far-however he is only 1 and hasnt gone to school or any groups of other children yet...what have other parents experienced?

6. Tv series
Tue, Sep 14, 1999 - 3:37 PM/EST

I loved the show. I thought the mother was a

superb loving caring parent. Dad was loving too,

but he also admits he had a bit of growning up to

do. Together,they provided a very protective and

loving environment.

I was disturbed by the behavior of African

American kids on the trip. I think they've

bought into being "victims" of the racism in this

country in a way that is extremely harmful. It

seems that they enter each new experience with

whites by defining all the parameters of

interactions at the outset. I absolutely

understand the urge to make those choices, but I

would argue that they should stand back and review

their options.

I know they could make a legitimate argument for

their behavior based on the many times they had

allowed themselves to be vulnerable only to find

themselves humiliated by some racist attitude or

behavior. But as Cecily said, "two wrongs don't

make a right." You can't say you abhor racism and

then turn around and treat someone else poorly

because of their racial background

7. re:dana
Tue, Sep 14, 1999 - 4:06 PM/EST
mrhys1

thanks for your insights into the african- american kids on the trip i had some trouble grasping where they were coming from with their logic in their interaction with whites until i thought about their experiences in the larger context of race relations. Obviously i cant trully understand how they feel since i havent gone through what they went through.

I was really surprised by the white kids they seemed spoiled and ignorant of how the african american kids felt and incapable of even attempting to try to understand their positions.

8. TV Series
Tue, Sep 14, 1999 - 4:30 PM/EST
alda

I found the first night of the series a little hard to follow, but still enjoyed it very much. Last night was interesting and brought back a lot of painful memories. Like the Sims children, I grew up in New York, and though you don't see Biracial families walking down the street every day.(Believe it or not we are not that much of a melting pot) you do have often have the luxury of interacting with people from different backgrounds every day. I wasn't surprised by Cicily's experience at College and the culture shock it must have been for her. I attended a all white private college in Idaho and was amazed at the lack of color or differences in people. It was the first time in my life that I was a aware I was black, even though I already new it. If that makes any sense. I look forward to watching the rest of the series.

9. the tv show
Tue, Sep 14, 1999 - 5:22 PM/EST

We have also enjoyed the first 2 nights of the show. There were so many interesting quiet messages that we could relate to, such as:

-The family's brief apprehension before entering restaurants on the trip to/from Cicily's college.

-The multicultural friendships the couple had developed with others (i.e. visitors to their home)

-The insistence of the family unit being SO important- protective vs. sheltered??

-The couple's willingness to allow each other to do what they wanted to do- his music, her decorating (while she was so sick? Not me!)

-Bill's feelings/excitement about Cicily's African trip was a cultural thing that Karen couldn't personally relate to

-Watching Cicily struggle with her identity and the other group members in Africa and sadly seeing how little progress has been made in terms of multicultural group relations, if this trip was a true example

-Mom is always right! Her baby goes off into the world and comes back with malaria!

Looking forward to more episodes...

Connie

10. Alda
Tue, Sep 14, 1999 - 5:45 PM/EST
viennes

It does make sense what you are saying (alda)

Unfortunatley in this society,if you have a drop of black blood, you are considered black,I don't blame her for letting it be known that her mother is white,she should be proud of the fact that she is bi-racial,hiding one or the other is demeaning to the parents,who love them with all there heart.

11. definition of race
Tue, Sep 14, 1999 - 6:05 PM/EST
lynn

What amazed me about Cicily's trip to Nigeria was that in that country she was considered white and in the US she's considered black. Doesn't that kind of make the whole idea of the assignment of race seem like a philosophical construct? She is no more white in Nigeria than whe is black here. As she says, she's just Cicily.

I was speaking with a dark skinned friend the other day and saying that there will always be ways humans find to define someone else as "other". In Ireland, one certainly can't tell by looking whether a person is friend or enemy, but that doesn't make the animosity any less than among US whites and blacks.

If you look at the Sims parents together you find that, yes, one is very dark skinned and one is very light skinned. You also notice that one is very tall and one is very short. The daughters, just as they are darker skinned than their mother are also taller. Imagine telling them they have to decide if they are short or tall based on those attributes in their parents. They are what they are, neither all of one parent or all of the other.

12. Sheltered or protected
Tue, Sep 14, 1999 - 6:22 PM/EST
lynn

This program is helping me understand what it is to fear that you might be a target of hate. Bill Sims says that being black in America is a high tension job. That hadn't occured to me. The idea that each time you leave the safety of your home anyone out there could target you.

Connie, you mentioned "The family's brief apprehension before entering restaurants on the trip to/from Cicily's college". Karen had said something like, "You want to eat here, with all the pick up trucks with guns in the back?" It really hit home, didn't it?

Of course Karen and Bill want to protect their family from those guns. By having done so successfully for the past 20 years, does that mean that the daughters don't see the guns? As michelel said, the family lives in Queens NY. How sheltered could they be? But I guess there's a difference between knowing the guns are out there and thinking they could one day be pointed at you.

13. Self-inflicted wounds.
Tue, Sep 14, 1999 - 6:33 PM/EST

While I find the series absolutely compelling, it is also troubling.

I keep asking myself why Cicily feels so disliked, and I think it has little to do with her being bi-racial. Unless she told people, no one would know that she's bi-racial. She MAKES it a big deal. She seems uncomfortable with who she is, and she telegraphs this to everybody she comes in contact with. I know that she's only 20, and she has a lot of growing up to do--she needs to toughen up a little and lighten up a lot. More confidence will come with time, I suppose.

I'm a bit disturbed by Bill. I fear that for many, he reinforces the stereotype of the drinkin' druggin', barely workin' black man. Shoot me, but I wish his hair was combed, neat and natural instead of fried dyed and laid to the side.

Frankly, for once I'd like to see a documentary about some of the successful African American Harvard/Yale grads I grew up with.

Many of them have faced as many obstacles as the Simms family. The difference-they talked the talk AND walked the walk.

Carol seems to wander about in a bit of a fog--but I like her best.

14. Pick up Trucks and Guns
Tue, Sep 14, 1999 - 7:07 PM/EST

I'd just like to add that I live along the route that The Simms family took while driving Cicily to Colgate. While it made for great drama, there is little chance that they would have been harassed at the Roscoe Diner.

This is a hunting and fly fishing mecca. EVERYBODY has a gun.

There are even a few interracial couples in the tiny village where I live. It's not a liberal area by any means-very Christian Right, but no one is shocked at the sight of an interracial couple.

15. The tv show
Tue, Sep 14, 1999 - 10:05 PM/EST
smuro97743

I am hooked on the show. I can identify with the mother all the way,and also feel for the children.It is interesting to see the racial issues from a different location. I just thought New York was much more tolerant, and that in college life, Cicley would be protected by the academic life where everyone would be more enlightened.It is sad to see how in many ways we have still so far to go. The talk of how if white seperatists took over how much it would affect the family was eerie.

16. New York
Tue, Sep 14, 1999 - 11:39 PM/EST
alda

There seems to be a miss conception that Cicily's school is in the City of New York where in fact the college is located in upstate New York which is very different from the City. Another thing just because one lives in New York City mean you are ducking bullets every second of the day. Growing up in New York is very different from going up in Utah or South Dakota or where ever. You don't face a lot of outright racism every day unless you are unfortunate to walk into a community that does not like the color of your skin. Often you attend school with other kids from a large range of different backgrounds. Growing up in New York City, I never thought about race or was ever treated any differently because of my skin color. Your classmates are more accepting. It wasn't until I left New York City that I became more aware of race and what that really meant. You can still live in the largest city in the country and still lived a sheltered life. It all depends where in the city you live and what is the make up of the community you are from. Are New York kids more sheltered than other kids who grow up else where no but there is still ways to shelter your child no matter where you live. I know many New York City kids myself included who have experience what Cicily faced in Africa and at college.

17. Cicily is tough!
Tue, Sep 14, 1999 - 11:39 PM/EST

In all the family, my heart goes out mostly to Cicily. She is a smart girl. Identifying with whites is hard but it is easier than the alternative route.(being black) In the episode tonight, I was surprised to hear her say that she did not want to be a part of the white race. My impression prior to her statement was that she really wanted to be white. She'll make it. She's tough!

18. we're all unique, created in Gods image
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 1:06 AM/EST
toney

If anything the show reinforced my initial lack of support for interacial relationships..for the kids sake! However, I have since reconsidered my opinion given that we live in a world full of shortcomings where people are categorized. I am saddened as I watch the show, the emotional roller coaster the children go through. I can not speak to Bill or Karen, since they made their rightful choices to be together. However, I hold them responsible for not preparing the kids to deal with the worldly misgivings about race. Instilling a sense of pride and basic human values like dignity for oneself, should have been their priority knowing what they went through themselves. Watching the show, I see a loving, caring family with the same needs and aspirations as any other family regardless of social status. I believe they all have the constitution to aspire to whatever they so desire, if they see themselves as people and humans created in the image of God, no less than anyone else. Prejudice is everywhere, I am an African who has witnessed it among my people, let alone in a foreign land. I dare say it didn't hinder me from seeking better opportunities here. I guess I am lucky in a sense, I was not born here and prejudice to me is not an issue, I imagine it exists, however I can't honestly say it's ever stopped me in school or at work. So I say to you Cicily, don't let people define who you are, live your life, take comfort in the family that you have. They will always be there for you..those are the people that matter ultimately. This life is a journey and we're all going through it, live it to the fullest..you can't make up lost time. I might add, you are all beautiful people.

19. non-viewers
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 2:24 AM/EST
tony11215

I'm impressed by the responses on this site, but that's kind of what troubles me. PBS tends to attract a more thoughtful type of viewer. While I'm encouraged by the millions who try to understand the issue of race in our country, I'm afraid that the message of this TV series will never reach the tens of millions who are intolerant or who are too ashamed, embarrassed or defensive to have their views about race challenged. While the series shows that family can be a salvation and a sanctuary, it also shows that family ties -- that is, the need to be accepted and validated by your family -- can perpetuate racism. It is certainly easier to accept the biased views of friends and relatives (and I mean of all races) than to challenge them and be ostracized, as Karen was by her family and friends. Bill was right: his daughters represent a challenge to everything many people were taught (either actively or passively) growing up, and people really hate to be confronted with the fact that many of the concepts and beliefs passed down from generation to generation in their families may not be absolute truths.

20. RE: definition of race
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 3:05 AM/EST
naka

Unforunately race in the US is not a philosphical construct; it has historical context. Plantation owners and slave traders took great care in racially describing slaves. Words like mulatto (biracial) and quadroon (1/4 black) were used to describe slaves with both white and black ancestry. Having a "drop" of black blood made you black which was (and sometimes still is) a stigma.

Look at the quandary over Thomas Jefferson having fathered at least one child by his biracial slave. This has basically been known for centuries, and yet the keepers of his estate would not (and some still don't) recognize it until science caught up with family history of the slave decendents.

So, this is part of the legacy of race in America.

Cicily was probably considered white in Nigeria because it is a country of dark-skinned black people. They are probably accustomed to people being either black or white and not shades in between (although I have a college friend who is Nigerian and biracial--I think this is much less common than in the US).

21. Thank you
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 3:05 AM/EST
smuro97743

The responses are so thoughtful and heartfelt, whether I agree with it all or not does not matter.I deeply appreciate your thoughts and feelings! As to tonight's first hour..it was a relief to leave the race "thing" aside for 60 minutes, and see the parenting issues of dealing with the preteen stuff.Tony, your words seem so wise and true...

22. the tv show
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 7:26 AM/EST
amy_dg

I was amazed that anyone would make Cicily "choose" her race when she went to Nigeria. That is when I decided to join this discussion group. I just love this family. I think they have been great parents and adore their children.

Shelly, I don't think Cicily made a big deal of being bi-racial until she went to Nigeria, and felt the pressure of having to "choose"

also while Bill may be a bit dysfunctional (sorry Bill)(Who in this discussion group is not)I see him as a very loving father who adores his children!

23. good
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 8:51 AM/EST
viennes

This is the first time that I have joined a group discussion like this or of any kind,I find it very interesting,it is amazing how set in our thoughts we can become,and therfore can not see other view points,this is going to be very enlightening for me.Keep it going people,I am enjoying this.Hopefully it will open some eyes and minds.

It sems to me that Cicily (I maybe wrong) feels that everybody dislikes her before hand.I think that she should take it a little slower and not jump the gun,base it on individual reaction to her,like we all have to do,weather it's dealing with whites or blacks or any other race.

I beleive that we, as parents of bi-racial children should make our children aware, but not to the point that we make them paronoid.

24. Lynn
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 9:04 AM/EST
viennes

It seems to me that you can say the same for whites or any other race, every time they go out that they maybe picked on by blacks or any other race, just because they are white.I personally have experienced that situation twice in my life,nothing drastic mind you, but it is out there.

I can remember when Martin Luther King was murdered, that I read of a situation where a black man killed his white neighbour of many years just because he was white......I am sure that there are thousands of stories like this going both ways.Sad but true.

25. Bills hair
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 9:05 AM/EST
terry

Shelly, while bills hair is not as you would like it, I find Bill a strong man protecting his family in the way that he does best and his hair is irrevelant. He prepares meals daily for the family and is there is to supervise children while Karen is away. What they have as a family works for them. For those who thinks he is reinforcing a bad sterotype, I say that sterotype is the stay at home dad caring for his family.

26. aware
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 9:24 AM/EST
viennes

I believe as a parent of bi-racial children that we should make our children aware of what we feel they may run into out there, but not to the point that we make them paranoid,which I feel happens all to often.

Cicily does seem to have it set in her mind that everbody dislikes her, she has to learn to take each individual as they come along, be it white black what ever, just as we all have to do (or should do) and not group people.

27. aware
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 9:25 AM/EST
viennes

28. sorry
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 9:38 AM/EST
viennes

Sorry about repeating myself.

29. College experience
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 9:44 AM/EST
farrell

I was surprised to hear Cicly talk about how race was never that big an issue in her life until she got to college. I would have thought that she would have had more awareness of racial difficulties considering the experiences her parents had had.

30. The college scene
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 10:24 AM/EST
jan

I, too, wonder a bit at Cicily's choice of a university.I would think that NYU or somewhere like that would have been a much more diverse institution and she might have met more people with whom she could identify. However, there is so much to this family and each individual that we will never really know - the editing of this series must have been a nightmare! I try to keep in mind that we are only seeing a portion of what was filmed - never the whole picture. Personally, I was never attracted to the idea of a sorority, but I can see that it would have definite advantages in Cicily's situation. Her sorority sisters were OK - it must be hard to be natural in front of a camera.

I continue to feel much compassion for her in her quest to know "who she is." Most of us have the usual growing up insecurities, but to actually have to choose which race you identify more with, is another thing altogether.I think she should definitely continue to define herself outside of a racial label - if at all possible. I thought the conversation with Tomika was very interesting. As a white person, I have no "group" loyalty to other white "sisters" - just because they are white. I have no obligation to stifle my own opinions or actions to keep solidarity with the group, I don't risk alientation or criticism if I differ from other white people. It must be so much harder to be an individual when you have to constantly remind yourself that you are a "black" individual. I feel that the African Americans show less tolerance for Cicily's situation - but then I have to remind myself that there are REAL reasons, historical reasons, for the close knit mentality. I'm not trying to judge - only to air some of the things that I am observing!

31. my reaction
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 10:28 AM/EST
amc

I've watched all the shows.

I also heard about the show on public radio and read a review in newspaper. The show has given me alot of insight on being bi-racial. However, I try to keep in mind that it's only this family's point of view. So, I'm looking forward to reading other folk's experiences. There are so many thoughts I have about this show.. I wonder why this family would want to have their lives filmed in this way? In particular when Cicily is barfing her guts out in the hospital and while being treated for malaria??? I admire her maturity, while ache for her in her dealings with her fellow students in Africa. It seemed to be a tense situation and instead of having the healing powers of reconnection to her "roots" (like Bill was hoping for), it was worse than staying home in New York.

32. my reaction
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 10:28 AM/EST
amc

33. impressions thus far
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 12:06 PM/EST
artist39

My two biracial kids and I have been watching the show, my daughter is almost 18, and my son 14. I find the couple interesting but not for racial reasons. The dynamic of their marriage, with Bill being a musician, and his reflections of his parenting, that sort of thing. As an artist who balances both responsibility of working a straight job and my art, or tries to at least, I find it interesting to view their relationship.

As for the kids, the older child and her pain is not something my kids relate to at all. They present physically as black, identify black and Jewish, and there is no conflict around that. They attend Berkekely High which self segregates but not with the degree of reprimands Ceicily experienced. My kids travel in many worlds, have been abroad, and refuse to let others define them. I support what is best for them, not what makes me comfortable and familiar. There is no conflict in identifying black and still ackowledging your white mom. My daughter and I are very close, I interact with all her friends and am comfortable with her strong association with the black community. Same with my son. I have seen, particulary with my parents, an attmpt to dilute their blackness to make them more comfortable with black grandchildren. This does not negate the love the mutually feel, but I see it and call them on it. Like go to Brandeis instead of Howard. She needs to do what is best for her and not what makes other people comfortable.

The black students on the trip were cruel, and I am not sure why it is such a problem for them to see a black person comfortable with white friends as well as black...my kids were not pleased by that, nor has it been their expereince. It will be interesting to hear from Chaney. At the very least the show has stimulated some important discussion, but remember, this is just one family and their experience.

34. which race accepts multiracial
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 12:21 PM/EST
jennifer

In response to which race accepts my biracial child the most I would have to say the black race usually accepts her more. Which is why I understand a lot of mixed children tend to go toward the black side. I also have two nieces that are biracial, one of my nieces looks all black her sister (who is biracial also) looks all white. You can see a big difference in the way people take to them. My daughter looks more hawaiin than any. I have had many people ask me if she was from the islands or various other places. So because of that white people take to her too. But with my niece who looks mostly black, it is black people who take to her. I get more stares and negative looks with her than any of the children. It is really sad, it hurts me deeply because she is my niece. I am very close to her and she is a wonderful child, if people would just open their eyes. I would like to get involved in any community organization on this subject so if anybody knows of any, please let me know.

35. Safety
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 12:23 PM/EST
jooty

It may seem shocking, dramatic, or unrealistic for the Wilson/Sims family to be so concerned about their safety. I'm sure that the parents of the injured children at the Jewish Community Center may have felt the same way before they were targeted. What about the mail carrier who was a "victim of opportunity" as the shooter put it.The gunman, by the way, was briefly incarcerated in my home town. He lived here for awhile and frequented many areas of the Northwest. Perhaps this fact makes the issue more real to me than to some folks. I don't advocate paranoia or living in a constant state of terror, but as a person of color I am vigilant. I am more of a target than my white counterparts. As part of an interracial couple the risk is greater still. My husband and I stop before planning a trip and always decide how welcome we will be at any given place in a way that white couples don't even have to think about. It is our reality.

36. sorority
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 1:18 PM/EST
farrell

I was interested in Cicily's college experience because I attended Hamilton College, which is very near Colgate and very similar to it. I very much sympathized with her when she was talking about some of the class-related difficulties she experienced with her fellow students and I thought that migh have also played a role in her college difficulties along with race. I remember hearing people talk about chartering private plans to travel back from vacations! It can be alienating and difficult to be among groups of people who come from wealthy backgrounds when you yourself are middle class or working class.

I can also remember black college friends at my college getting much criticism for joining private societies.

37. per Jennifer's request for resources
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 3:17 PM/EST
artist39

Hey Jennifer

I am aware of resources for biracial children and families so email me at artist39@AOL.Com. I am currently working on a project related to biracial/bi-ethnic children and I am sure to have info for you.

38. sheltering our interracial children
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 3:58 PM/EST
shiro

I have to say, Monica and I have been very conscious about where we've lived while the kids were young. We chose neighborhoods (and schools) which were well intergrated and had at least some interracial kids as well. It wasn't easy but it was worth it. I feel the TV program is a bit too focused on the "problems" of being interracial. Cecilly knows who she is and what she's about in terms of politics and racial awareness. She also has the ability to move between two very separate cultures at her college (something that will put her far ahead of her Black and White peers when she graduates). The problems are really her Black colleagues who resent her, (I believe)and her White colleagues who don't take the time to know her (like the boys who wouldn't think of dating a Black woman). She has everything going for her and yet, because she's in a very narrow world of cliques, it looks like she's the problem!

39. Why the Sims Family?
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 4:06 PM/EST
evangeline

I am also finding the program to be very compelling in its topic, but several matters about the family members are for me very distracting. I believe that people irregardless of their race or culture should be able to marry and live as a family without ostracism. To better sell the bi-racial marriage/family on the many skeptics in the viewing audience, a family with fewer personal shortcomings could have better accomplished that task. The members of the Wilson-Sims family have too many quirks for me to keep my mind on the main topic of the documentary.

The Dad is too sterotypical: he is not the main breadwinner; he has "outside" children; he has an unreliable means of earning a living; he has trouble coming home every night and staying off the booze; his personal appearance is very unattrative, i.e., his hair and his teeth; he smokes. The Mom smokes. She wears her peace symbol earrings like a banner from her rebellious, hippy days. (For two parents who profess to be protective of their children, they must not ever have heard of second-hand smoke related illness.) Cicily is too hung up on announcing to everyone that she is bi-racial. That is probably because she realizes that she doesn't look like a bi-racial person and she wants others to know this fact. Cicily also now smokes! Chaney is a very physically mature 12 year old, who probably will also be a smoker. The money the parents spent on cigarette over the years could have gone toward orthodontic treatments for the girls, especially Cicily.

I would have preferred seeing the same type of documentary done on a family where the dad holds down a meaningful five-day-a-week job, and where the human frailties of the family members would not distract the viewer from the broad message of the film.

I shall continue to watch the program through its conclusion and in my next dialogue be less tough on the family members, especially Bill.

40. What's normal?
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 4:59 PM/EST
artist39

Per Angeline's recent comments:

I believe very few of us come through life unscathed. I have issues with Bill nad Karen smoking, but I grew up in home where both my parents smoked and I would hardly use that as an indicator as to my parent's love or caring (yes different times I know but still...), nor would I expect this family to be the banner family for interracial marriages or kids of those unions. There is no such thing, and even in families which present a more attractive picture, there are deeply rooted issues that can be shrouded by appearences.

My ex husband worked a regular job, and for whatever the reasons, our marriage did not last, though not because of racial reasons. Who is to say what is right or wrong? He is a good man and a good father, very present in the lives of my kids and we do the best we can. Would our family be a good subject for a documentary even though we do not fit the typical middle class vaues mold? Though with the divorce rate, I guess we do. We are a pretty interesting collection of people with good days and bad days, strengths and weaknesses and sometimes our most frustrating moments become good stand up comedy in retrospect! Anyway, my point is that the Simms family is just one family and one expereince, and as outsiders looking in it is easy to apply our values and judgements. The public viewing of the family has invited it so I am not really being critical.

With that said, it is my hope that the series cracks open the door for people to look at their own issues regarding race, gender, class, diversity and not just the issues of the Simms family who have exposed themselves by being the subjects of this documentary. Bravo for that alone!

41. The TV Show
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 5:17 PM/EST
susanne

I find it refreshing that there is finally a show that depicts the reality of an interracial relationship. Two people who love each other and are committed to each other for reasons other than race. So often the general public labels and rationalises such relationships in a vulgar and sexual way. As if two people of different races could not possible be truly in love.

42. artist39
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 6:25 PM/EST
viennes

I find you're insights very appealing,My children were born and raised in Vallejo,and are still living there, as you probably know Vallejo is very much intergrated, maybe that's why we did not run into as many problems as other people of interacial marriages.I lived there until Feb 1999.My children are 23,22,20,17,14, I have another child with a different black woman he is 7. My two older children have children from blacks.The reason I am telling this is that Although my two oldest children are very light skinnned they still tend towards being with blacks.I do have to say that they do have some white aquaintences,but the majority is black.In speaking with them, I cannot honestly say that they had the problems that Cicily is having,it may lay in her. In her statement that she does not want to be white,It seems to me that she has more problems with the blacks then the whites.

Just to add, I love my grandchildren very much.

Regarding smoking, unfortunately I am a smoker and am hooked, that does not take away the fact that I would give up my life for any of my children.

43. Marriage
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 6:45 PM/EST
viennes

I just wanted to add that we divorced because she meet another man(white)there was never any racial reason for it,we are good friends and allways will be.I was called a workaholic and did not spend enough time with her,with 5 kids go figure,it's work or don't eat and have a nice home.

I added this so people see that we are all the same.

44. I agree with Evangiline
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - /EST

I like the Simms', but they are maddening. I have lost patience with them. They seem to do nothing except eat, smoke and lie on the couch, bemoaning their fates.

Yes, you WILL find racism if you look for it under every rock, as they seem to do.

Bill's meetings with his son from a previous relationship are revealing and very sad. The focus of the discussion is not how this kid can turn his life around, go to school and make something of himself. The focus is on what are the odds of him beating the rap.

I refuse to believe that there are "no opportunities" for a black man in Marion. We must MAKE our own opportunities. My great grandfather was born a slave in the late 1850's. Yet, he still managed to eventually graduate from college, become a respected business man and landowner in segregated East Texas and put his son, my grandad, through law school. I know that his story is not typical, but it shows what can be done when you truly know who you are, When you have something to bring to the table, there is ALWAYS someone who will give you a chance.

BTW, the scene where Chaney gets sick in the car was shot in my village!

45. another view
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 2:11 AM/EST
tony11215

I'm intrigued by some of the posts about Bill. For the most part, he seems to me like a loving parent, but it seems like others view him as irresponsible. I just think he's a man coping as best he can in a disillusioning world. Everyone deals with stress (or, as Bill said, the constant tension of being black in America) in different ways; clearly one of those ways is smoking, although it's not a stress-relief method that I agree with. Also, Bill seems to take solace in his music, and if that helps him cope, so much the better. Sure, it's not exactly a stable source of income, but neither is day trading or freelance writing or any of 100 other ways that people try to support their families. I'm not defending Bill without question. I don't agree with some of his approaches, either. I'm just saying that he seems to be making an honest effort now, despite his past missteps with his son, and I believe he should get some credit for that.

46. trip to africa
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 2:28 AM/EST

I must admite that I was stund at the behavior of the black americans in that they seem to have learned nothing meaningful: everyone was talking over each others head without getting to the point which is about how do I "realy feel" about what I am experiencing and what can I "learn"and "teach" from the natives and from each other. I just hope that these young blacks will find a way to reconcile within themselves these issues and not continue to pass on from one generation to the other,the feeling of helplessness.

47. Bill--- Good Guy or Stereotype?
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 3:28 AM/EST

I understand that Shelly is a bit dismayed that

folks might see Bill as fulfilling those buggaboo

black male stereotypes. I see the glass as half

full and I revel in his thoughtful voice overs. I

loved the way he's always in the kitchen. I can't

remember when I last saw a twelve year making

Easter eggs and having a good time with her dad

finding the eggs. I certainly haven't seen my Yale

grad dad friends involved in a Easter egg hunts.

I personally think he's putting a big old dent in

those stereotypes. He's hung in there and he

acknowledges his early poor choices and decisions.

All any of us can do when we realize our mistakes

is to apologize and change the behavior. I have

noticed he and his wife are not physically

affectionate with one another publicly They both

seem to be very private people (inspite of the

fact they've allowed a camera to follow them

continually)I thought it poignant, his statement

about marrying a woman who is the antithesis of

his mother. His wondering about what his mother

thought about his choice of a white wife.I'm

interested to know what the rest of you think

about Bill.

48. points to ponder
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 6:52 AM/EST
amy_dg

My first reaction to Bill and his son was : Is this the same Bill we see in New York. I could not beleive his words of: I told him, If your going to do this, don't ever take anyone with you, never go the same route. Almost like instruction of how to be a good drug dealer, not Son stay in school, Son,there are other ways, Son the fast money will catch up with you. While I don't know what Bill's words were to him before. These words were a shock to me.

I agree with Shelly, that we must make our opportunities. When we get knocked down, dust our self's off and get up again. It takes a strong person to do that.I also was shocked at the fact Bill did not try to say there are other ways, just, yep looks like they got you. Just my point, Is this the same Bill?

And yes Tony , Bill is a loving parent, and takes comfort in his music, and I could not understand some of the comments on his appereance.

I need to say, when I finished watching last night, I was feeling somewhat sad. Sad for Bill, yes he was 17 when he had his son, to young to make the right choice, Sad for his son, thinking the wrong choices he has made. Sad for his first daughter, as Bill was leaving her saying she wished she could get on a plane and go to New York, stating, sometimes it feels like the twilight zone here. The fact of the matter is Bill was young when he had his first two children, he stated that the first girlfriend/wife (not sure)that they both always tired to kill each other. He was smart to leave. It also made me sad when Bill stated he was whipped everyday by his mother. Having welts on his legs. Good for him for never hitting his children

It just did not seem like the same Bill from New York to me.

49. Editing.
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 9:21 AM/EST
viennes

shelly, All I can say is EDITING.

Maybe thats all they do is eat smoke,lay on the couch and bemoan there fate. I got to believe there is more to it, we don't see everything.

I agree with you in regard to finding racism,if you want to find it you will,my ex was and still is good at finding racism. Some true some in her head (possible)

50. Definition of race
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 10:01 AM/EST
shiro

Lynn, you are absolutely correct that race is a "construct". I would call it a social construct, but the point is it has no true basis in biology. Science has known for a long time that the concept of races is a highly simplistic way of classifying humans. There is as much genetic variation within races (say Blacks from Africa) as there is between different races (say Whites and Blacks in the Queens). Ultimately we're just humans, with a lot more in common than not. But our history and politics makes us pursue racial distinctions. Remember in the supreme court case of Plessy vs.Fergusson which established segregation, the defendant (who wanted to ride in the first class (= white section) of an overbooked train) was 7/8 White. Only in Louisiana could they have identified such a person as Black. Only in the U.S. or South Africa would they care.

51. Bill and Karen
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 10:20 AM/EST
amc

I'm watching this show through my own screen.. I like Bill alot. His love for his girls, his observations about Chaney growing up so quickly...seeing the 2 year old in her somewhere. I loved watching Bill and Chaney looking for Easter eggs too. I hadn't heard that game of "your'e getting hotter, colder, frozen" since my childhood. I admire his music, his love of cooking (how his family of origin shows love). I don't think he dresses wierd for the kind of work he does, in fact he looks cool when he goes to a gig! He looks like he has a good relationship with his parents. I laughed when he talked about boys going out with girls, that all it's about is SEX, SEX, SEX. What disturbs me is his feeling that the only place he and his family are safe is in their own space ,their appartment....not to trust anyone except your family. His hiding his feelings and smoking bugs me too. I have trouble understanding him when he mumbles . He has good things to say .I wonder why as the Black parent he has let Cicily be put in the unsupportive experiences of college and Africa. He states she will have to deal with the dominant culture someday, but as a young woman Cicily has had too many difficult situations for me to agree with. For someone as protective of his kids I wonder why he let her be so vulnerable. College lasts for 4 years...too long to be alienated !!!

52. Bill and Karen
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 10:20 AM/EST
amc

I like Bill alot. His love for his girls, his observations about Chaney growing up so quickly...seeing the 2 year old in her somewhere. I loved watching Bill and Chaney looking for Easter eggs too. I hadn't heard that game of "your'e getting hotter, colder, frozen" since my childhood. I admire his music, his love of cooking (how his family of origin shows love). I don't think he dresses wierd for the kind of work he does, in fact he looks cool when he goes to a gig! He looks like he has a good relationship with his parents. I laughed when he talked about boys going out with girls, that all it's about is SEX, SEX, SEX. What disturbs me is his feeling that the only place he and his family are safe is in their own space ,their appartment....not to trust anyone except your family. His hiding his feelings and smoking bugs me too. I have trouble understanding him when he mumbles . He has good things to say .I wonder why as the Black parent he has let Cicily be put in the unsupportive experiences of college and Africa. He states she will have to deal with the dominant culture someday, but as a young woman Cicily has had too many difficult situations for me to agree with. For someone as protective of his kids I wonder why he let her be so vulnerable. College lasts for 4 years...too long to be alienated !!!

53. SORRY
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 10:30 AM/EST
amc

YIPES!!! Sorry about repeating myself....

54. tv show
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 11:01 AM/EST
smuro97743

Wed night's shows were interesting,I especially found interesting how Bill took care of and reacted to Karen being ill.It has nothi

ng to do with race, I do not think, but both my husband and I yak at each other nonstop,I am not sure how I would react to a quiet man.

With all the talk of how bad Cicly felt in college, when she was walking with her torch in her pre graduation ceremony, did she not say, "I am going to miss this place?"

There has been some discussion of how the family is not perfect-Bill has problems, they smoke, his older kids, the girls teeth...but isn't that what makes them average?

55. all this talk about Bill
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 4:54 PM/EST
artist39

I thought the Wednesday night episodes were very powerful and revealing. The more I see of Bill, the more favorable my feelings for him. I am concerned about a few things as I read the feedback, and quite troubled. I liked the point made about Yale grads known to one of the participants who have never made Easter eggs with their kids. We are filtering this man through such a rigid lense, critical of how he looks, that he doesn't fit into the suit and tie 9-5 mold, he smokes, ect. Okay, I hear all that but what about the strengths and lessons learned that he takes responsibility for? How many men/women acknowledge their mistakes, and try to do better as they go along? Demonstrate real growth? I know plenty of men who present attractively and hold so called responsible jobs, and on the sly behave horribly. It is just a facade and nothing else. Perhaps it is beacuse I am an artist, but I find nothing wrong with his appearence or the fact that he plays music for a living. If Karen is okay with being the main breadwinner, who cares? Isn't that what women's lib was about? Debunking the old ways and myths, shaking up the fixed roles, well that is a two way street. By Bill's own admission, music was what saved him from going down the tubes and I completely understand that, I wish more kids had a passion that kept them afloat. See my next posting.....

56. continued
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 5:13 PM/EST
artist39

I lost the next posting while writing it and I cannot face writing it again, not sure what happened but it is gone so next posting I will try to incorporate it. Computers drive me crazy!!!!!

57. Re: Shelly and self-inflicted wounds
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 5:21 PM/EST
naka

I had to smile and agree, somewhat, with some of your comments. I must admit I was pleased to see Bill cut off his hair.

I too wish there were more portraits of African-American and multi-racial families on TV and in the movies. When you watch a series like this, you can understand why the NAACP and Latino community's gripe with the networks. If an alien came to down to earth and watched American TV they would have an unrealistic portrait of American life!

To Shelly: Although not a documentary, a film called The Best Man will be coming out in October about a group of successful young African-Americans who reunite for a wedding. The film is written and directed by an African-American film maker who went to prep school with me in Brooklyn. I look forward to a film with African-Americans where there is no shooting and no gangs.

58. More on Bill
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 6:52 PM/EST
evangeline

In my comments yesterday, I promised to lighten up on my criticisms of Bill on my next posting. I have to renege on that intention and comment on Bill as revealed on Wednesday's episode. It is so sad that Bill's oldest children have such dismal futures to look forward to, and the reason for that is Bill. First he bacame a father much too young, and he had (and still does not have) no skills upon which to seek a steady, secure career. Bill's philosophy that he formed as an adolescent regarding hustling as a black man's best means of rising above middle-income is very self-defeating. He at least had his guitar, but his son has nothing. The young man goes to jail for 18 months where he'll learn to be a more sophisticated criminal. Nothing was mentioned about the amount of monetary child support Bill provided his oldest two children which leads me to conclude that there was nothing on a regular basis. How can anyone judge all interacial marriages based on this one where the husband is a free-loading, school drop-out, overall-wearing, guitar-strumming poor excuse of a father?

The producer needed to select a family in which the head of the family would not be so repulsive and open to criticism. Then I could look beyond the shortcomings of the characters and see the beauty of the love story being portrayed.

I agree completely with Shelly's comments concerning both Cicily and Bill. I love the way that Shelly expresses herself and coins phrases.

59. to evangeline
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 8:44 PM/EST
artist39

You have a lot of issues and are very judgemental. Do you always see only the negative? Are you as hard on white collar crime as you are on drug dealers? No wonder I am so vigilant about my 14 year old black male son, he iwll be judged far more harsher than my daughter. How limited of you to view this family and this man from the rigid lense provided by the doninant culture that cannot see anything outside of that box. No doubt he messed up with his first set of kids, and he takes responsibility for that, his saving grace wwas leaving Marion Ohio, but sadly it was his kid's downfall, however, I doubt he can be blames for everything.

I don't know about you, but I am far from perfect. I consider myself a good mother, but that does not mean I have not inflicted my share of damage, we all do as parents, unless of course you have not and are perfect. My kids are awesome, and perhaps some of that can be attributed to their having to deal with my imperfections and baggage. We learn through our struggles because life is not a straight line. I feel the Simms-Wilson family has more strengths than weakness, and they nor any other family is a poster child for interracial marriages. There is no such thing!!!!! get a grip, this neat little package you are looking for does not exists in any type pf family unless it is fake. As I said earlier, I am a diveorced mother of two biracial children who are loves by both father and mother...I have made big mistakes and many of them my kids are aware of. Bottom line is that I am here for them, and have been a good momn despite my problems. Love is the glue that binds. Through this viewing we face not only the Sims-Wilson's flaws, but our won as well, and in that process, hopefully find compassion for ourselves as well as others.

60. How much is real, how much is for the camera.
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 9:05 PM/EST

Tony and Dana make some excellent points. I too see a deeper side of Bill in his voiceovers.

But-- sorry, that easter egg hunt didn't ring true to me. My instincts tell me that scene was for the camera.

As the director said last night, we are really seeing what the Simms' want us to see. Nothing more or less. There are also deeper issues that the family skirts. I worry that like her dad, Cicily has a burgeoning drinking problem. While her parents seem well aware of her habits, NOBODY addresses it (at least on camera.)

Bill intimates that perhaps he has not always been-- a how shall I say it-steadfastly true to Karen.

Yet, she seems happy supporting him. More power to her!

Karen can't take her family to visit her mother Florida for fear of repercussions--sad--so very sad.

Gotta go, shows on!

61. to evangeline again and again
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 9:22 PM/EST
artist39

I forgot to mention regarding your remarks about Bill as a free loading ect.: How can you say that being a musican is not a real job? Ask Bonni Rait and she will tell you it is, another person who overcame problems to become sucessful later in life. You have no understanding of being an artist and haviing passion or following one's dream, regardless of what others think. If everyone followed your persciption for sucess we would have empty museems, no movies in theaters,

no music or anything else too imagination or

passion or vision. You are the one who is

perpetuatiing steroypes, not Bill.

Aside from Cicily and Bill being an artist, this is a totally non discript family. You need to face your biases and stop looking for nat packages to make you feel better about interacial families.

62. A great resource
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 11:49 PM/EST
jan

This is kind of off-topic, but today I came across a great magazine in the course of my work as a librarian. It's called "Mavin" and it's aimed specifically at mixed race students on our college and university campuses. It looked lke a really good resource - we started a subscription to it for our library. You can have a look at it at: http://www.mavin.net

BTW, I have no affiliation with the magazine - I just thought it might interest people to know about it.

I am eagerly awaiting the airing of the final 2 episodes tonight. I, too, loved seeing the Easter egg hunt and the breathless waiting for "the boy" to show up! As far as Bill's first family goes, what a shame that it seemed to be a "given" in Bill's mind (maybe his dad's too) that if you are black and poor in Marion, Ohio, you have to do drugs or turn to crime in order to get by. I don't say that Bill condones it, but it was presented as though it was a reasonable explanation (to him) for his son's troubles.

63. Glass houses
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - /EST
susanne

Why is there so much criticism of this family? They smoke, they drink, Bill doesn't dress appropriatly. I dont understand. We are all humans who have shortcomings and bad habits. How would you react if you had a camera in your home and everyone could see your bad habits. The point of this series is racism in this country. I dont see a lot of dialoge about racism.

I can tell you that being in a interacial relationship is harder and you do have to worry about where you are going. Every time we have moved to a new town, I have to worry and wonder if someone is going to burn a cross in our yard. There are still places in this country that a person can be murdered just because someone else does not like the color of their skin. It has not been that long since Jasper Texas.

I have to wonder if the participants who are moaning about the smoking, or how bill is dressed, or why cicily chose that school, hasn't missed the point of this program.

Race and freedom in this country.

By the way, Cicily has every right to go to Colgate.

64. No boundaries
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 2:03 AM/EST
naka

I thought this discussion group was suposed to foster all sorts of comments about the series, and hence the Wilson/Sims family, positive or negative. I hope it can be kept in mind.

I think one of the reasons why Bill is such a source of interest in this series is that frankly, he is the most compelling character. As the series is now over, I feel like I have learnt the most about him as an individual and as a member of a family. I cannot say the same for Karen or even for their daughters. Through everyday interactions and voice-overs, we have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly of Bill.

I wish we knew more about Karen as an individual. We learnt a little more tonight in the reunion episode, but I still feel that she was more self-conscious of the camera than Bill. I also think she tries to see life through rose-colored glasses, for example tonight when she stated that her parents were in Florida when she was in the hospital giving birth to Cicily, but her sister said her family was at home and was informed when she had the baby.

The reunion episode gave me real insight into Bill's sense of family. It seems that his family, whatever their troubles or the whoopings Bill received as a child, has always been there for him and Karen. Yes, Karen's family was conspicuously absent throughout the series until the end. I found it interesting that even to go back to Ohio for HER reunion, Karen and Bill stayed with his family.

I am still confused about the timeline of their relationship: the periods of separation, the marriage, the move from Ohio, living in California, etc...And I too am curious as to Bill's relationship with his older kids once settled in NY; why did he never bring them to NY? What is the nature of the relationship between his two sets of children? I guess I am left without answers to these questions.

65. the tv show
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 2:07 AM/EST

lets not forget that we are all in some ways, a product by association,which is to say that Cicily for example,spent more time with her mother and therfore feels quite comfortable with white folks than her black counterparts.

66. the tv show
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 2:07 AM/EST

67. Addition to 'no boundaries'
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 2:21 AM/EST
naka

In refence to my initial comments above, these dialgoues are set up for people to voice their opinons, whatever they maybe. An example of that is in the Soapbox section of this site under 'Comments about this site'. There is a long rant titled, white pride forever. Remember this is what we are up against, and thought I don't like it, I can't begrudge its presence on this site.

68. just saw last show
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 2:24 AM/EST
smuro97743

I am glad I took the time to watch, in the end,I felt good about seeing a family- not a biracial family. Of course, as I know from my own experience from being in the same situation there are huge hurdles, but bottom line, to me is that many of the things that were issues have no color barrier, and to me that is much of the point of the piece-once we choose to make a family,regardless of the color of the parents,we will face the same issues.

69. more impressions
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 3:29 AM/EST
artist39

Now that Bill has become respectable by cutting his hair, getting sober, dressing cool, working steady, fixing his teeth, perhaps we can focus on more important things, and hopefully some people can work through their prejudice and biases about the exterior and stop being hung up on apprearences, because the can be deceiving. It's all about packaging in this world...

I applaud the growth of this man, the steadfast realationship between husband and wife, the love between parents and children.

My biracial children do not feel about themselves as Chaney and Cicily do, they have never felt a conflict with identifying black and having a white mother. rave was always delt with in our home, it is as much a fact of life as learning to cross the street and look both ways. I prevented my son from being sent down the tubes in special ed as so many other black males are. If I could not face or understand his blackness then I could not have

saved him from a system designed to damage him. My kids have traveled to a small Greek island, France, Denmark, Israel and England. They live in the Bay Area and have visited their white grandparents for years in New England. They know who they are and how the world receives them. They have never felt by identifying as black they were slighting me, I never let them. Parenting them has enriched my life and provided a vantage point that I would never have know without them in my life. We celebrate the Jewish High Holidays this week and both my kids are addressing the congregation. Life, with all its darkness, continues to shed light and joy. With love and passion and humor and compassion, families, and I mean all kinds of families, can endure and thrive despite the obstacles and judgements. Thanks to the Sims-Wilson family and the vision of Ms. Fox. it has been a pleasure.

70. evangeline's comments
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 3:45 AM/EST
tony11215

It was interesting that Susanne asked why there have been so many comments about Bill's appearance, and then commented that she wanted more dialogue about racism. As I see it, the two issues are directly linked, because they both get out how we judge people by outward appearance. Evangeline has made judgements about Bill based on the style of his hair, the condition of his teeth, his choice of occupation, and so on. All of this leads her to see Bill as "repulsive," despite his love for his family. Racism fosters the same sort of reaction. I consider myself an accomplished, educated person; I've achieved many of my goals, I don't lie, cheat or steal, I don't smoke or use drugs. But I know that when I walk down the street, there's always going to be someone who can't see beyond my brown skin (just as Evangeline can't see beyond Bill's hair and teeth and his guitar) and will instantly judge me as suspect or deem me "repulsive" because of it. I shouldn't have to wear a sign around my neck saying "Educated Honest Man" because of the color of my skin, any more than Bill should wear one that says "Loving Parent" because he wears overalls. And while we're talking about appearance, here's something for Evangeline to think about: you can bet that among that crowd of 9-to-5 working, jacket-and-tie wearing, briefcase-carrying, smooth-talking men that you so obviously set as a role model is more than one man who is cheating on his wife, or beating the you-know-what out of his kids, or snorting cocaine, or doing a lot of other things when he drops his suit and his charm and his smile and gets behind closed doors.

71. wow, this is getting hot
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 10:18 AM/EST
amc

As a middle class woman, I want to refer to my earlier comments... I said Bill looks fine to me, dressed for the kind of work he does. I developed alot of respect for him..his honesty and verbal expressions for us viewers about his feelings for his wife and girls. I moved away from home at age 19 and could relate to his crazy feelings about going home to Marion. He can't blame himself for all of his son's problems.. Alton's mom was responsible for some of Alton's problems,too. Alton has to be held accountable for his screwups. His sister Tia has turned out OK and has worked through Bill's absent parenting and seems to have forgiven him. She looks like she wants to be close to Bill . More later, I want to talk about Karen to get your reactions..

72. Cicily & Chaney
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 11:37 AM/EST
alda

I just want to add that even though in the series Cicily said she identifies as black I think deep down that both girls identify more as bi-racial and there isn't anything wrong with this. But they should be honest with themselves and say that is how they really feel. A lot of blacks face the same kind of problems they faced from other blacks who parents are both black. I myself experience this a lot in high school. And I went to a high school that was largely Chinese, Black and Spanish. I found that most of my friends where White, Chinese and Spanish. Which only made the situation worse. In the neighborhood I lived in again thought it was very mixed I still felt isolated by other blacks. It really bothered me a lot at first then decided I can't make people like me no matter how hard I try. It was only after I became an adult that I made friends with other black females.

In all I really enjoyed the series and thought Bill grew as a person the most in front the camera. Watching them last night after the series I was happy to see Bill smile and was drawn in by his insight. I am sure as a family they learned a lot about each other as well as many of the viewers hopefully learned that interracial families are no different from any same race families. I was glad in many ways that racism was not only the main focus but also showed that interracial couples and their children have the same problems, ups and downs. I saw two children discovering who they are and that is no different from children from same race marriages.

73. ohio
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 12:03 PM/EST
farrell

I was really struck by the contrast between the children Bill had with his first wife/girlfriend and those he had with his second. He did not seem to have any hope or expectations for his son to make an honest life for himself, whereas Cicily has been provided so many opportunities and options. He (Bill) didn't seem like the same man in the two different settings.

I was also confused by the tension that seemed to exist between Karen and her mother. I thought at first that she had objected to Karen's marriage, but apparently her parents both supported her in that regard. They could have made the backgrounds of these two people clearer.

74. re: farrell
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 12:27 PM/EST
stephanie

I felt that they *did* explain the underlying tension between Karen and her mother: it came from the fact that her mom married a racist after Karen's father died. She also chose to live with him in a place where there are Klansmen, and thus Karen cannot bring her family with her for fear that they will be beaten or killed. Karen said she feels like her mother chose "this man" over her children. I would bet that he probably doesn't want to go to Queens for a visit, and doesn't want his wife going alone, either.

The source of the tension seemed painfully clear to me when I saw the strained smile on Karen's face as her stepfather told the story of the first time he met Bill, "at the fish fry." He laughed as he told of seeing his stepdaughter, and then his wife, jump up to hug and kiss a black man. He acted out his reaction, which was to jump up with his fist raised to protect the women.

75. tv show
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 4:00 PM/EST
sueb

I was left feeling sad after the show-a bitter sweet feeling. Bill appears to be carrying around so much heaviness and inner pain with no outlet but his music. Some of the sadness was picking up on this, I think.

And then, the sadness that our culture appears to not be as "advanced" as I thought, in attitude.

But these things take generations to heal.

And remember, this family is just a family! 5 different people. Not every biracial family is the "same'". That would just perpetuate more stereotypes.

76. re:ohio
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 4:25 PM/EST
farrell

I did not see the scene you describe with Karen and her stepfather - I see how that would explain the problems more.I did get the feeling that the problems between Karen and her mother went back for a long time - she makes a remark like"It's too late" at one point which would seem to me to indicate that there is a long, unpleasant history.

I think either Karen or Bill makes a remark about losing family members because of their marriage. Is it ever made clear who they are?

77. advancement
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 6:36 PM/EST
viennes

It was asked, why this family decided to let there lifes be photographed on film,I don't know about the girls or Karen,but if you remember when Bill was visiting his family, he stated that he had a plan. He is a smart man,the publicity he got advances his career plus I am sure they got some reimburment for being on the show,plus after each show he sang for us,again a good move career wise.He is talented and I hope his career goes far.

After all is said and done,this is just one family,and I wish them well. Depending on where you live who you are,weak or strong,we all have to live our lifes.

I am sure that if my family was filmed there would be people who would criticis, such is human nature.Live and let live.

78. Only
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 6:52 PM/EST
viennes

At Karen's School Reunion did you notice that Bill was the only Black there. Just put yourself in his shoes,I respect the man for that alone,it would have been easier for him not to go.

There was a time in my life where I did not speak to my brother for 7 years,because he cussed my ex-wife out over the phone.Wife and children come first.Bill and Karen showed that. They have there short comings, but don't we all.

79. Whoa!!!
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 7:04 PM/EST

Artist39-

It's clear that you relate more closely to Bill than many of us. That's OK. But, please keep in mind that by agreeing to be followed around with a camera for 18 months, the Sims' have tacitly invited all of America to judge them, harshly or not. Bill may have be doing the best he can under the circumstances, but that doesn't mean that we have to like him!

He grosses me and Evangiline out! Sorry!

80. Dealing (and I don't mean drugs!)
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 7:28 PM/EST

We will never get ahead until no African American has to be "respected" for walking into an all white gathering. I'm not talking about crashing a KKK rally- I'm talking about the necessary skill of dealing artfully and fearlessly with folks who may be predisposed to disliking you because of your race.

I pray for the day when we African Americans no longer WASTE precious time being angry and bitter and worrying ourselves to death over whether white folks like us or not.

Life is way too short. And, as I said, opportunities abound if you prepare and know where to look.

81. The TV Show
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 11:43 PM/EST

I really got hooked on the show. I have about 1 1/2 hours left to watch on tape, since I work evenings.

There are two things that I just don't understand. One is the dislike displayed by the students in Africa and the criticism of Bill. Regarding the Africa trip, I once lived in Jamaica and the motto was "Out of Many people - One. " I think that we really need to think more like that in our country. WE are Americans with each of us having a very important heritage. I remember growing up as first generation American and my parents would not let us learn their language as we are in America now. I wish that we had learned to be bilingual, but they chose to learn English and embrace their new country. Although my family was Catholic, they were still run out by the Nazis and their countries destroyed. I believe that the separatist thinking in this country pulls us apart and we forget that we are all in this life together.

As far as the criticism of Bill, I just don't get it. He seems to be very devoted, they both seem to be. And they are making it work, which is better than most of us who are caught up in the divorce statistics.

82. Kindness
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 11:50 PM/EST

I don't understand why either Shelly or Evangeline

believe criticizing another person's looks is at

all helpful to this dialogue. To say that another

human being grosses you out is to be particularly

self indulgent.

You, of course, have the right to say awful

hurtful things about someone. It says a great deal

about the two of you that you chose to excercise

that right

83. A really fine show
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - /EST

This was a really fine ten hours of television. I

think this family in many instances was a kind of

Rorschach Test for those of us viewing them.

As for Bill's first family, he was a kid himself

and he made the same mistakes millions of young

people made. For those who were shocked at his

behavior when he went back to visit his son in

Marion, I think he had a lot of quilt, which

stilted his ability to engage his son in a

different kind of dialogue. When you haven't been

there, its difficult to get to the cut the bull

kind of confrontation. When you haven't been

there, you tend to feel you have no right to get

tough, so you get into that kind of sad dance

where everyone walks around acting defeated.

I wasn't surprised by Bill's conversation with his

son about avoiding getting caught. It wasn't about

condoning the behavior, it was about the reality

of young men and how Ok if you do this in spite of

all my warnings, then you'd better watch your

step. It's male stuff.

In the end this show told me as much about myself

as it told me about this family. I worked very

hard to withhold judgement, to examine why I felt

irritated and to simply give them the benefit of

the doubt. It was always very tempting to impose

my values on a particular situation. It was much

harder to simply observe and not judge. I doubt

any of us observers would fare any differently if

our lives were thrown up there on screen for

public consumption. So I am happy for the lesson.

I watched people make choices, some I agreed with

and some I didn't. But what does that matter? It

is not my life to live. It was better that I be a

student of life and learn a little about how

others choose to live their lives.

Bravo!

84. to shelly and evangiline, and dana too!
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 1:25 AM/EST
artist39

Thanks for your comments dana, very well put.

Well, shelly and evangiline, of course you have the right to be grossed out, and Bill did invite the world in by being in this film. I think I said that a few days ago. I do not relate to Bill in terms of the life he has lived or his choices. I do understand passion and the creative spirit, however, and I have a problem with judging books by their cover. Sometimes pretty covers have ugly insides. I also understand how narrow the view is from a one dimentional box. I think dana spoke for me in his comments, I hope you give

dana's comments some thought with an open mind.

85. shelly
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 2:45 AM/EST
viennes

I agree with you that black people should not have to worry about going into an all white gathering,just like a white person shouldn't have to worry about going into an all black gathering(right)who maybe predisposed to to disliking you because of you're color(right)I don't like either situations,but get real it's there,and until we can wipe that out,we better face up to it.Bill is taking steps in the right direction,dont let whites intimidate you,also don't let blacks intimidate whites, but again we know in the real world that happens.

By you're own statement,some whites and blacks have trouble realizing that you are black. So you can go into a white gathering and probable nobody would notice,but put youself in Bills shoes, he dealt with it very well.

86. blood
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 3:12 AM/EST
viennes

It was stated before that if you have a drop of black blood in you you are considered black,that law should and needs to be changed.we should not be putting labels on our interracial childrens heads before they are even born.It serves no purpose, except for bigotry.I also believe that anytime there is a ? on a form that needs to be filled out for any reason,there should be no mention of race.I personally don't discriminate, I dislike eveyone equaly.Black/White/Yellow,what ever.

87. It may be politically incorrect-but
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 5:33 PM/EST

Yes, it is now very unfashionable to mention looks, grooming, backgound or level of intelligence in this so-called melting pot of America. We would like to believe that we are all the same! BALONEY.

Hate me for telling the truth, but if Bill looked like Denzel and Cicily looked like Halle Berry, things might have been a bit different for them. That is REALITY, unpleasant as it is.

THIS artist has no ax to grind and woould not THINK of accusing anyone of being judgemental or cruel in my assessment of what is, after --all a TV show. Lighten up folks. JEEZ.

It's clear that there is a lot of transference going on here.

88. to shelly
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 6:08 PM/EST
artist39

Denzel is fine, Halle is beautiful, no doubt about it. I admire their looks. That is not the point, at all. My problem is this: What is relevence does Bill's looks have to the kind of father or person he is? And what does it say about you that you to equate the two. I know I am not the only person to feel it is superficial and judgemental. As far as transference goes, you are really off there, I am not only an artist, but I am a respected professional who can play that dress up game whenever I choose and look good while I am

doing it. I just don't consider my good looks a measurement of the kind of person or mother I am.

Your remarks about the show reflect who you are

and how you think, so in that sense it is a bit more than a tv show.

Many brave and brilliant people have struggled

over the centuries to eliminate the kind of attitude that you speak of and measure Bill and

Cicily by (I happen to think Cicily is very attractive, even with her teeth) Didn't Hilter want to create a beautiful society? All he had to do to finalize his plan was commit genocide. As a Jew, I'm glad he didn't go all the way.

Words are weapons, ne a little more careful with your.

89. Books and their covers
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 7:13 PM/EST

First of all this forum is about tolerance and the television show. Any observation about the Sims family is valid. Lest I be attacked for being too harsh, I'll explain.

"Never judge a book by its cover" is one of those homespun sayings that sounds so good and true. The fact is, publishing companies spend millions of dollars designing just the RIGHT book cover. The cosmetics industry is a multi-billion dollar business. Plastic surgery has become an industry.

Can you guess why?

While your cover may not reveal the inner depths of your being, it DOES speak volumes about how you feel about yourself. You WILL be judged by the way you look, no matter what mama said.

It may be true that there are a lot of gainfully employed, well groomed meanies out there. There are just as many underemployed, unattractive, badly groomed ones. Given my choice of rat, I'd go with the former.

Some of us see Bill as admirable man who has overcome his demons and grown. Some of us see him as a slickster who knew a good thing when he saw it.

SO BE IT.

90. Huh?
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 8:23 PM/EST

What "Attitude?" Because I think that being well-groomed and caring about the way you look is a positive trait?

You are way out of line in comparing my sentiments with those of Hitler, artist39. That is uncalled for.

No one is suggesting that Bill be eliminated.

91. After-show thoughts
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 8:28 PM/EST

I've taken a few days off from posting to digest my thoughts about the series and the posts here and would like to share some of them.

First, I thought the last couple of shows were the most telling of all. The family was honest and their emotions pretty raw about Bill's issues, especially his alcoholism. Being a child of an alcoholic father, it was pretty painful to watch him come home in the morning, obviously under the influence, and make breakfast or the scenes where it was obvious he was at rock bottom. Very real stuff and I applaud Bill for allowing us to see that.

But I disliked the fact that as soon as he complained that he wouldn't be able to get any work done because they would all be there over the weekend, Karen took off with the girls. Artist or not, I thought that was a great example of his selfishness; I mean, could he not work when they were gone during the week? I thought this was a good example of Karen and the girls enabling Bill's behavior; my husband thought it was a good example of Karen's mothering skills and why she was close with her daughters.

Re: their trip back to Ohio- wow, I could really relate to that. I was borned and raised about 50 mi. from Marion and was a single mother of a biracial child there in the 1970's. Lots of their experiences and memories rang very true to me (even camped at Indian Lake!). Some friends were pretty supportive of interracial couples but the older generation was very judgmental. I also could not wait to get away from there, and when we visit now, we still feel somewhat uncomfortable, compared to So. CA where we live now. You can experience racism anywhere, but I think it's a bit easier to live in or near urban areas where there are many cultures.

Bravo to Karen and Bill for going back to the reunion! That took guts and shows their strength as individuals and as a couple. It's not easy to go back and face those demons from the past and they handled it with grace and courage.

Connie

92. Knowledge and Sensitivity
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - /EST

I won't presume to speak for Evangiline, but I think that many black people are EXTREMELY sensitive to the images of us portrayed in the media. Yes, I admit it. I was as uncomfortable with Bill as I was with Karen's stepfather. For very different reasons of course. Was he a wonderful, devoted father? That's debatable.

Do I think he was doing his best as a father? Yes.

I also think he's a man who would do ANYTHING to be able to continue his quest for musical stardom. He as much as admitted that.

It was also clear to me that the family was very much aware of the camera at all times. They were much more self conscious than the Loud family was in the series that aired a number of years back.

The show was ok, but I doubt that it will foster a change in attitude among the "nonbelievers."

There are many more positive stories in our community. I'd like to see one.

93. Holier than Thou
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 10:30 AM/EST

There is something REALLY bothering me regarding this forum. A couple of posters have taken it upon themselves to chastise those who disagree with them. I believe that this practice is inappropriate. It is NOT in the spirit of this forum to attack or even question another poster's character simply because you don't like what they have to say.

I suggest that we avoid it. Those who do not will be preaching to an empty house.

94. to shelly
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 12:12 PM/EST
artist39

What is this stuff about nonbelievers? Was the point of this show to convert people to embracing interracial marriages? Not from my understanding. Portray us as attractive, educated, perfect interracial versions of white families that are just an illusion anyway? And all this based on yhe dominant cultures ideal. Give me a break! I never sought to convert anyone when I married my husband, or seek anyone's approval. Who gives a shit? I have to live with my integrity, and answer to myself, not some racist. I am not about to bend overbackwards for approval or acceptence, particularly from "nonbelievers". Just when I am about to completely dismiss you because I feel it is a negative waste of my time to even address your remarks and try to penetrate your judgemental and superficial attitudes, you come up with something else. Nonbelievers, huh? Some of us have the strength of character and sense of self not to care, and raise our children to feel proud of who they are, not apologoze or seek approval from "nonbelievers". I guess I could resist responding just one more time.

What it is up with you?

95. apologize?
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 12:53 PM/EST
viennes

I agree,we do not need to apologize for inter-racial marriages and our children,those that don't like it,that's there problem,and I feel sorry for there narrow mindedness. I feel that in the long run it will pull us all closer together,at least I hope it will,I am sure that it will not happen in my life time,but hopefully soon,before we all destroy each other with hate and bigotry and petty jelousy's,life is to short for that.

96. What are you SO ANGRY about artist39
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 4:29 PM/EST

You are obnoxious, angry, troubled and abrasive.

And you are clearly hear only to talk AT everyone, not WITH anyone. You have no desire to even TRY to understand any view other than your own,

Get lost.

OVER AND OUT.

97. Susanna
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 4:53 PM/EST
susanna

I came to watch the show in the middle of the second night. I watched every one since then, fascinated because I saw parts of my life and heard parts of many conversations I've had over the years.

I found myself watching for Karen's responses in scenes that were clearly focused on other family members.

I am 54 and first dated a black man in 1967 when I was 22 and separated from my husband. We lived in Seattle in the "central district" which was predominantly a black neighborhood. Where else could we have lived? I left my son with his father because my life in the central district was hard and I didn't want to subject my son to some of the things I had to endure. Walking home from the market to the house I was picked up by the police numerous times (arms full of groceries) for suspicion of prostitution. Patted down, held in the back of the car in cuffs and sometimes taken downtown. Picked up at night walking home from the library with books in hand, taken to a remote area and raped by a police officer who knew my man and hated that I was with him.

(more to come)

98. Comments (continued)
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 5:01 PM/EST
susanna

The series focused on the problems that would be faced by the Wilson-Sims children, and I felt that they showed it very effectively. It also spoke to the kinds of "mental planning" you must do if you are an interracial couple ~ again, very fairly depicted.

To hear Bill say that being a black man in America is a full time job, was a truth that I think some members of this discussion group failed to take in completely. I admired Bill for his decision to love, and to do so in full knowledge of the obstacles it would raise in his life. I saw him mature as a father, husband and human being in this series and respect him.

Karen's admission that it was in Bill's family where she felt safe, secure, and protected was also a truth for me.

I wish that there had been more about what Karen has, and probably still does, experience as a woman who has crossed over. The dirty looks, comments, and shunning from men and women who see her with Bill.

My reality has been that once you cross over, you can not really ever go back. I noticed that Karen was relaxed and open when in her own home or in the company & homes of Bill's family and friends. But in her mother's home, she was tense and her expressions were guarded; her face was tight and pinched-looking. For me that was also a truth about feeling more "at home" in a place where you clearly look to be the only "outsider". A real contradiction, because it is also in the community of your lover where you can be hurt the most.

When we went out, I experienced a lot of subtle and not-so-subtle remarks,looks, and "accidental"

shoves from black women. I understand intellectually what pain they might have been in, but I felt that I was seen as the cause. When I asked Joe if he also caught grief, he said he didn't ~ and I wondered if I were hyper-sensitive or if he just was unaware. I still don't know.

99. comments (continued)
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 5:10 PM/EST
susanna

I have had some good friendships with black women and we have weathered some storms; I have been confronted about behavior and I have likewise challenged statements. Bumps and bruises, hugs and laughter, and we survived.

Having made the decision so long ago to "cross over" and not look back, has probably had a great-er affect on my life than anything else. Being a woman was probably the 2nd most important "shaper of my life".

To love across racial lines is a political statement. Every action taken from that point on has political consequences and to deny that is to choose ignorance.

100. And now, back to the show. How about Karen?
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 6:39 PM/EST

Despite my misgivings about the show, I did feel that it was worth watching and I really liked Karen. I felt that she was quietly determined to hold the family together. How does the group feel about her?

And, to add the requisite bit of superficiality, LOVED THE HATS!

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