Relationship Group 9: Are education and economics the key?

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Topic #16. Are education and economics the key?
(Showing 1-55 of 55)

1. Are education and economics the key?
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 4:53 PM/EST

It occurs to me as I read the messages, that we

all seem educated AND tolerant AND probably middle

class (we all can afford to own a computer and get

on the web..).

If racial prejudice is really a result of fear and

ignorance of those who are different, does having

enough money to comfortably survive help take care

of the fear, while education (not just the "three

Rs", but social experience) helps take care of the

ignorance....

What do you think and what does this suggest about

the solutions to the problem?

2. response to bbc
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 5:38 PM/EST
shelli

bbc –

Perhaps you are right. I know of plenty of non-tolerant people who are very well off financially, but they lack the "social experience" – perhaps never venturing out of their social circle.

At the same time, my husband’s grandmother, who has lived in poverty most of her life, has taught me more in the 10 years I have known her about tolerance and respect of other people through her actions and the way she treats others.

Solutions? People have to be willing to get out of their social circle to learn about others. Will it/does it happen… ?

3. Sad Facts re: Education
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 6:15 PM/EST
bleyequeen

I work at an elementary school in the Midwest. It seems that no matter what interventions we try to bring our black males up academically, their test scores on nationally normed tests are still lowest, with their female counterparts scoring just slightly higher. This is not unique to our school, but rather it is the rule throughout the district and nationwide on every level from elementary on up.

Another interesting statistic to examine is the SES, or socio-economic status. As a whole, the group of students on free, government subsidized school food programs score lowest on these same tests, with those on a reduced price meal plan scoring slightly higher, but still notably lower than those who pay full price for their meals. This is true regardless of race.

Other research shows that the educational level of the mother has a bearing on the academic success of the children.

I am interested in hearing your thoughts and welcome any comments you might have.

4. On education
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 7:43 PM/EST

Germany was one of the most advanced, civilized, educated societies in Europe before WWI. The rest is history.

Could it be that no matter how open-minded we try to be, how much we expose ourselves to different cultures, we are still only an economic disaster away? If I need to step on someone to get my daily bread, will it be easier for me to step on someone I don't identify with? Meanwhile, the longest peace time boom continues humming along. We may yet find the answer within our lifetimes. Nothing alarms me more than to hear friends say "We are too open-minded, it will never happen in this country."

5. Forms
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 11:10 PM/EST
bleyequeen

My earlier post made me think of something that really irritates me. Do you ever get asked on forms to mark which race you or your children are and find that there is not one that will suffice. My husband marks several of the choices for himself and we both mark several for our children. Of course I know they probably almost always get counted as black, which is fine with us, but I guess marking everything that applies is our way of saying we don't agree.

6. Education and test scores
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 1:19 PM/EST

To: Bleyequeen

Yes - I am aware that National test scores are

lower for black students. It is worth thinking

about the reasons - I suspect reason #1 is poverty

and the violence and lack of social support that

often

goes with it. If kids are spending all their

energy on survival, it's not surprising they

aren't doing well on tests. Besides, tests are

often ethnically biased.

I am in a graduate program studying to be a

guidance counselor. One of the big trends these

days are studies on resiliency. One of the

factors relating to student's success

seems to be having at least one adult person in

their lives who is seen by the student as a

mentor, someone who believes in them. I find this

hopeful, one person can make a difference.

Since you are actually working with these

students, what do you think are the reasons for

the test scores? Do you think helping them do well

educationally would help build racial

understanding?

7. to shelli and kilimanjaro:
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 2:00 PM/EST

Shelli - Thank goodness for your husband's

grandmother. People like her make a huge

difference in the world. One of the gifts of

suffering, can be compassion. My own grandmother

lived through the depression and shared the little

the family had with those in need. I am grateful

that these grandmoms and others keep spreading

love.

And for Kilimanjaro - Yes, compassion is not the

automatic impulse. I do think human nature leads

people to protect themselves and those who they

feel are part of their "clan", when there is

economic hardship. The US doesn't have a monopoly

on ethnic problems that are linked to economics.

My husband has relatives in Holland where this is

unrest about immigrants from Turkey and in I

recall reading about serious problems in Italy

where immigrants are seen as taking jobs. It

doesn't seem to take much to spark hatred when it

affects people's livelihoods and there is an

easily identified "other".

I am hopeful that compassion and understanding

will keep us moving in the right direction

8. to shelli and kilimanjaro:
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 2:01 PM/EST

9. Education/Tests
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 10:06 PM/EST
bleyequeen

To BBC:

Literacy is the key and it seems that it all comes down to lack of exposure regardless of ethnicity or SES. Children who are not talked to, read to, provided with reading materials, etc...just simply do not do as well those who are. Much happens developmentally to prepare children to read before they ever reach school age and parental involvment in education is crucial from the very beginning.

I don't know how much helping black students or any other ethnicity succeed educationally would improve racial understanding, but it sure can't hurt. It is wise to be aware of the statistics and it's time that we stop side stepping the issue where parents are concerned. Some things in life are hard to hear, but I believe it's time for parents to hear the facts in regard to their children's behavior and academic perfomance.

How can we expect a change unless we are willing to tell parents the truth and then help them to help their children?

10. Education/Economics - Enough?
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 11:00 PM/EST
ben

I think it depends on how you approach the question. In my opinion, no matter how much you try to educate a population that hitherto has made concessions only through the force of legislation, you may just be spinning your wheels. It may not be ignorance alone, or at all. I agree with Derrick Bell's assessment in his "Faces at the Bottom of the Well" (here he quotes Jennifer Hochschild from her "The New American Dilemma"; Derrick Bell is former Weld Professor of Law at Harvard, now at NYU Law School) " 'that racism is not simply an excrescence on a fundamentally healthy liberal democratic body, but is part of what shapes and energizes the body.' Under this view, 'liberal democracy and racism in the United States are historically, even inherently, reinforcing; American society as we know it exists only because of its foundation in racially based slavery, and it thrives only because racial discrimination continues. The apparent anomaly is an actual symbiosis.' " So, in my view, racism is not something to be eradicated; it is of the fabric of this nation. (cont'd)

11. Education/Economics - Enough?
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 11:03 PM/EST
ben

And by racism, let me be clear that I use it in its academic sense, the only definition I can see holding as valid in a discussion like this, where only those in power, who determine the course of the economy, social constraints/freedoms, etc., i.e. whites, can be racist. Alternative words like racialism, prejudice, discrimination should otherwise be applied when speaking of anybody else (if we can't agree on language, how can we communicate effectively?). This doesn't mean all whites are racists; just means only whites can be racist, according to the definition I choose to use. I'm sure others will protest, but then our definitions will differ. Hate to be wordy, but I see a lot of us talking past each other. Sorry to sound so grim, but currently, this is how I approach the condition of African Americans and the future of the group. At least you know where I'm coming from. (cont'd)

12. Education/Economics - Enough?
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 11:07 PM/EST
ben

Anyway, for my part, I concentrate on education (myself, family, and community), and financial stability, because these are at least essential, although not sufficient, aspects of life needed to survive and thrive in the society we live in. I can't really comment on other "minority" groups and how they will be and are now affected by racism; in fact, how this all plays out for the future of the country is well beyond my precognitive powers. But in my estimate (and it is my hope against belief), that for this country to eventually see something like a racism-free society, it will be through the efforts mainly of the minority groups together working on the problem. I don't see whites substantially contributing to the effort; a small cadre of liberal thinkers, maybe, but not the great mass; racism benefits them far too much. Once again, Derrick Bell: "Crucial to the this situation is the unstated understanding by the mass of whites that they will accept large disparities in economic opportunity in respect to other whites as long as they have a priority over blacks and other people of color for access to the few opportunities available." Of course, I hope I'm wrong.

13. To ben:
Sat, Sep 25, 1999 - 9:47 PM/EST

You seem to be saying that whites can't have a

voice in helping change racism in this country.

Unless whites do become a positive voice and join

in the effort, how will a solution that benefits

all groups be reached? It doesn't have to be an us

against them mentality. In my view, shifting from

"us against them" to "us together" is essential to

the solution. There may be benefits to whites to

allowing racism to continue, but there are

far greater human benefits for whites by reaching

out, dealing with racism and becoming part of the

solution. It benefits all races to work together

and learn from one another.

14. to bbc
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 1:52 AM/EST
ben

No. Not can't have, but don't have. It won't be the initiative of whites which ultimately pushes this nation toward some sort of equitable "solution," if such a thing is ever resolved (remember, IMHO). Rather, as usu., it will be a choice of crises: Either there is capitulation under pressure (as in the 60's under threat of complete social unrest in the cities and a police action abroad, not to mention the eyes of trading partners beaded on the trouble), or some truly radical and reckless response ala Nazi Germany (never say it can't happen here). The human benefits you allude to are not often shared unless as a response to some threat. If you can find a historical case in this country where this is not true, I'd be grateful, and might then begin to feel some hope for the Great Eventual Conciliation. And it's always been a them against an us in this country; whites vs. Native Americans, whites vs. African slaves (and their freedom), whites vs. the Chinese (esp. on issues of employment re:displacing the white male worker), white men vs. the suffrage movement, white robber barons (and for some time, the courts) against the worker and unions, whites against returning Black servicemen (lynching), whites against school desegregation, whites with Jim Crow, whites dismantling the gains of the Civil Rights Movement with alarming alacrity, esp. almost all aspects of Affirmative Action (an ongoing process), etc. (cont'd)

15. to bbc
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 1:55 AM/EST
ben

Yes, there was indeed a small, committed group of whites who fought alongside the group(s) in question in this nation after identifying their cause(s) as a righteous cause (the cadre I mentioned), but only after significant suffering on the part of the oppressed group, and without the same (by far) at stake. I'm often puzzled at what seems to be ahistorical considerations of the future when speaking of the future of racism in this country. There are patterns in history that of course bear on the present and the future. I ask you this: If the idea, self-evident, that all races working together benefits all, why has this notion never flowered here, in the US, this liberal democracy we call great? When, then, will there come the grand epiphany, when we all conclude that yes, finally, it's time to join hands and nation build in a truly egalitarian fashion? I mean, the idea has to come from somewhere to begin this change, and logically, should it not originate with those for whom there is the most to gain and the least to lose, relatively speaking? So, I reiterate, the critical mass will be of POC. Whites may join in some action in a small number, as in the past, but only after the situation has reached (or passed) the crisis stage. Every mass movement in this nation concerning POC points to this eventuality. Whence the hope for some alternative mass enlightenment? Sorry for the diatribe, but I get agitated when I'm confronted with this pie-in-the-sky societal forecasting. Where does it come from? And again, I hope I'm wrong. (BTW, those are real questions. Please enlighten this doubter).

16. To Ben
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 6:06 AM/EST

I agree with what you said Ben.I in my opinion

believe that the only way racism is going to end

is through higher levels of business ownership by African-Americans.Not just in music & sports etc.

But in areas such as the technologies and health care market.Already there is a national shortage of those needed for the technology fields.There has to be some massive effort to come up with a solution to eradicate low self esteem,which becomes a perpetual and generational albatross around the necks of entire families.I think one solution that I have seen work is teaching a poor child and their parent how to navigate in the computer world. Even after saying all of that,I still fear that deep down in the psyche of our country,there is the need to have a group of people that everyone can say,at least I am doing better than them.This is also the reason why I think a lot of police misconduct has been tolerated for so long.Have you noticed that the people that they damage the most is never the most dangerous.Any way all of this may be a moot point,because by the year 2020 half of america will be non-white and for our own survival as an american family we will be forced to raise everyones educational standards to help maintain our brave new world of technology.The corporations are too smart to continue to import educated people from other countries,who may turn out to be spies gathering info to take back to their home countries.I See the future of America being bright.We'll get it together.

17. to ben
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 6:11 AM/EST
alicia

ben, I am black and would like to see affirmitive

actions policies dismantled. We fought hard for a

Civil Rights Amendment which denounced

preferential treatment. I hate to be a stickler

for rules but that should include EVERYONE.

Affirmative action is the only thing hate groups

can whine about with any credence.

You feel that a racism-free society can only be

obtained through the efforts of minority groups.

I'm afraid racism is a pinball bouncing off of

everyone scoring points. No one is immune to it

and no one holds a monopoly in it. So who are

these POC? Are we talking about blacks, hispanics,

asians, native americans? Have these groups formed

some coalition to fight racism? Did someone forget

to tell the black gangbangers who harrass the

korean merchant in Venice Beach or the group of

hispanic highschool students spewing out racial

epithets at blacks. What about the native

americans in their soveriegn nations: have they

been invited to join this American POC movement?

Are we talking about America or maybe globally.

Can we convince the Tutsi and the Hutu to stop

lobbing of limbs long enough to work towards a

racism-free world? There's some messy stuff going

on in Chiapas, Mexico. I'm sure they can halt

their activities to join the POC movement against

racism. You couldn't even get a Guamese and a

Japanese in the same room. I'd personally like to

join a more stable coalition.

I honestly believe that when the scales are

balanced out there is a lot of hatred in humanity,

alot of biases and a lot of discrimination and we

are all carrying the weight. Sometimes color

doesn't even play a part. We ALL, bar none, should

be a part of the solution.

18. Amen, Alicia and Thanks Ben and Johnizen
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 11:54 AM/EST

Thanks to Ben for bringing up some of the

frustration and anger that historically is

completely understandable. I agree, the white man

as a group has a long laundry list of atrocities

in this country. Even though the whites may have

a heavy load, as Alicia points out hatred, bias

and discrimination are a HUMAN problem.

Unfortunately fear and greed and more common than

courage and love, but I remain hopeful that the

power of love will prevail.

Johnizen has some great points about economic

solutions. Maybe schools as institutions can

create grants/programs to increase the

opportunities for poor students and their

families.

I believe that solutions come first through

individual and local efforts and they can grow to

movements. Examples? Just last week in USA

Weekend, the feature article was about two

churches, one black, one white in St. Paul,

Minnesota whose congregations chose to become one

church in order to build better racial relations.

It started with the two ministers meeting and

wondering about solutions.

But let's keep it simple. On a given day - What

can I do? What can you do? For me - I can be open

to friendship with those of color and show

understanding. I can confront my father when he

makes racist remarks. I can be senstive to and

support students I work with who are feeling

harrassed. I've strayed into political solutions

from time to time, but these individual actions

are real for me.

Ben and others - what have you done either as an

individual or politically that helps you feel you

are making progress on this issue?

19. to alicia: Affirmative Action
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 1:30 PM/EST
ben

Hi Alicia. Actually, affirmative action policies were put into place to reflect the spirit of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as was reaffirmed in the 1991 amendments. It was a legal attempt at recognizing the disparity between certain groups and the mainstream yet to be bridged which would give them the equal footing so that yes, eventually, all people could be treated as having come from a level playing field. It recognized that the fact remains, the gap has not been closed. What exactly is your specific argument against affirmative action? Have we arrived? Is there now a level playing field we can all agree (with a sigh) has us fairly involved in the national dialogue? The hate groups I've monitored mainly point to the seeming tokenism of affirmative action, when in fact to read the act reveals the aim (as yet not reached) is to give unrepresented groups the right to compete on levels where they have historically not been allowed. If this is preferential treatment, allowing historically misrepresented groups to engage in society in an equal manner, I would ask that you please reassess your definition of preferential.

20. to alicia: POC and Racism
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 1:33 PM/EST
ben

Once again I have to point to language, and what we precisely mean when we use words. Please see my earlier post on racism vs. other words. What you describe seem to be cases of prejudice and hate. Of course, no one has a monopoly on these emotions. Yes, we are talking about Blacks, Hispanics, Asian Americans and Native Americans. Actually, coalitions do exist among POC. A recent example is the call for boycotting network TV's premiere week jointly made by the NAACP, La Raza, and AsAm in the Media, and American Indians in Film (founded by Sonny Skyhawk). to protest the lack of representation on TV. As to gangbangers - as you well know, they come in all colors. And they are foremost, criminals. Certainly you are not implying they are a representative group from any community, of whatever ethnicity?. Everyone spews racial epithets at times. And yes, Native Americans have been invited, and some have accepted the invitation. A good for instance is the Piquot (have you seen their photos - they're Black Native Americans, and they own a casino). Other groups like the Mashantucket Piquot are now acknowledging their mixed heritage with African Americans and many previously disbanded Nations are coming together under a new banner inclusive of African slave/Native American mixes. There was even an article about it in Newsweek. Out here in the NW, there are coalitions between AfAms and Native Americans, esp. surrounding issues of homelessness and teen suicide (try the Emerald City Net for more info).

21. to alicia: Global Racism?
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 1:38 PM/EST
ben

I made a point of specifically speaking about the US. If you like, why not start a global issues thread, to allow for more diverse opinions.

22. to bbc - my community involvement
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 2:11 PM/EST
ben

Well, as I pointed out, I do believe in higher education, esp. for POC (but education for everyone; I choose to focus on POC; but there are plenty of poor whites who are educationally disenfranchised - bbc, perhaps a project?). And economic empowerment. When I say this, I point to community self-sufficiency, not to some global capitalistic scheme. For instance, I view compulsive gambling as destructive a habit as say heroin addiction, but I was made to concede the boon to the Native Am. communities here and elsewhere based on the casino at a meeting recently. But mainly, it's the coalition building that gets me excited. Specifically, fundraising efforts where you see all hues making monetary and time sacrifices, which pretty much amounts to giving up life blood in this society. I learn a lot from these projects, esp. where it concerns the main problems as perceived by members of a community. Only after moving to the West did I learn of the appallingly high level of teen suicide on many reservations across the nation (highest of any group). This is an area I have been focusing on recently, as well as curbing high rates of alcoholism. These are a few specific instances. Others are the usu. - money to causes, pickets, letter-writing campaigns. But what hits me personally is getting disadvantaged kids into college (which means making sure they survive to attend) and making sure they graduate, then helping them in their professional searches.

23. to alicia - one last thing: FYI
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 3:17 PM/EST
ben

24. to alicia - one last thing: FYI
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 3:26 PM/EST
ben

Comrades:

This writing coming from a former Republican President may shed some light on current realities. Please let me know how you feel about this.

Warmly,

Bruce Lightner, Raleigh, North Carolina, http:www.king-raleigh.org, FYI and Consideration.

Inclusive America, Under Attack, By Gerald R. Ford

The New York Times Op-Ed, Sunday, August 8, 1999

Of all the triumphs that have marked this as America's century -- breathtaking advances in science and technology, the democratization of wealth and dispersal of political power in ways hardly imaginable in 1899 --none is more inspiring, if incomplete, than our pursuit of racial justice.

The milestones include Theodore Roosevelt's inviting Booker T. Washington to dine at the White House, Harry Truman's desegregating the armed forces, Dwight Eisenhower's using Federal troops to integrate Little Rock's Central High School and Lyndon Johnson's electrifying the nation by standing before Congress in 1965 and declaring, "We shall overcome."

I came by my support of that year's Voting Rights Act naturally. Thirty years before Selma, I was a University of Michigan senior, preparing with my Wolverine teammates for a football game against visiting Georgia Tech. Among the best players on that year's Michigan squad was Willis Ward, a close friend of mine whom the Southern school reputedly wanted dropped from our roster because he was black. My classmates were just as adamant that he should take the field. In the end, Willis decided on his own not to play.

His sacrifice led me to question how educational administrators could capitulate to raw prejudice. A university, after all, is both a preserver of tradition and a hotbed of innovation. So long as books are kept open we tell ourselves, minds can never be closed. (cont'd)

25. to alicia - one last thing: FYI
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 3:48 PM/EST
ben

But doors, too, must be kept open. Tolerance, breadth of mind and appreciation for the world beyond our neighborhoods: these can be learned on the football field and in the science lab as well as in the lecture hall. But only if students are exposed to America in all her variety.

For the class of '35, such educational opportunities were diminished by the relative scarcity of African-Americans, women and various ethnic groups on campus. I have often wondered how different the world might have been in the 1940's. 50's and 60's -- how much more humane and just -- if my generation had experienced a more representative sampling of the American family. That the indignities visited on Willis Ward would be unimaginable in today's Ann Arbor is a measure of how far we have come toward realizing however belatedly the promises we made to each other in declaring our nationhood and professing our love of liberty.

And yet. In the last speech of his life, Lyndon, Johnson reminded us of how much unfinished work remained. "To be black in a white society is not to stand on level and equal ground," he said. "While the races may stand side by side, whites stand on history's mountain and blacks stand in history's hollow. Until we overcome unequal history, we cannot overcome unequal opportunity.

Like so many phrases that have become political buzzwords, affirmative action means different things to different people. Practically speaking, it runs the gamut from mandatory quotas, which the Supreme Court has ruled are clearly unconstitutional to mere lip service, which is just as clearly unacceptable. (cont'd)

26. To Alicia: affirmitave action
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 3:50 PM/EST

Alicia,I too being of African descent was against affirmative action until I had a personally painful experience.I was taking a test for a corporation in the electronics field and got 100%

on the test.One of the test overseers was a Bi-racial female and in conversation she told me that I was a virtual shoe-in for the job.She said that she was proud of me,but I had to pass a face to face interview with one of the bosses before getting hired.Alicia,not only do I speak well I carry myself even better.I was in a room during the interview with a white corporate type and his black seceretary.The next day the Bi-racial female called me almost in tears telling me that I didn't get the job.She told me that they hired the hot looking hispanic girl that got a 78% on the test.Alicia,I was one of those conservative pull yourself up by the bootstraps African Americans.But,that situation showed me that choices of employment etc.are made everyday without true checks and balances.If I was in a position of power to choose who I could have around me everyday in a work enviorment, I must admit,I would have picked the girl too.But that has nothing to do with merit.

27. to alicia - one last thing: FYI
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 3:57 PM/EST
ben

At its core, affirmative action should try to offset past injustices by fashioning a campus population more truly reflective of modern America and our hopes for the future. Unfortunately, a pair of lawsuits brought against alma mater pose a threat to such diversity. Not content to oppose formal quotas, plaintiffs suing the University of Michigan would prohibit that and other universities from even considering race as one of many factors weighed by admission counselors.

So drastic a ban would scuttle Michigan's current system one that takes into account nearly a dozen elements -- race, economic standing, geographic origin, athletic and artistic achievement among them -- to create the finest educational environment for all students.

This eminently reasonable approach, as thoughtful as it is fair, has produced a student body with a significant minority component whose record of academic success is outstanding.

Times of change are times of challenge. It is estimated that by 2030, 40 percent of all Americans will belong to various racial minorities. Already the global economy requires unprecedented grasp of diverse viewpoints and cultural traditions. I don't want future college students to suffer the cultural and social impoverishment that afflicted my generation. If history has taught us anything in this remarkable century, it is the notion of America as a work in progress.

Do we really want to risk turning back the clock to an era when the Willis Wards were isolated and penalized for the color of their skin, their economic standing or national ancestry?

To eliminate a constitutional affirmative action policy would mock the inclusive vision Carl Sandburg had in mind when he wrote: "The Republic is a dream. Nothing happens unless first a dream." Lest we forget: America remains a nation with have-nots as well as haves. Its government is obligated to provide for hope no less than for the common defense.

Gerald R. Ford, August 1999

28. To bbc : What have you done to help progress?
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 4:38 PM/EST

bbc,thank you for your comments.First I would like to say that you are a noble person to recognize that you are in a position to make a difference and choose to do so.The things that I am doing stems from my philosophy of,first you must help yourself,then you must help your family,then you must help your friends,then your immediate community etc.

I have helped myself through business,etc.to attain middle class status.I then took on the responsibility to help my family.When all of my family members are on positive automatic pilot with their lives,then I will move on to help my friends.etc.bbc,it is out of order for people to go out to save the world and they can't even help themselves.Let alone their family.The way that I help is in nurturing the self esteem of the children in our family.Positive words and actions mixed with a lot of hugs and a "YOU CAN DO ANYTHING" speech from time to time has worked a minor miracle.When I say the children in the family,that includes neices and nephews and cousins etc.bbc,every family has at least one person that has made it.If that person would take on the responsibility to help at least the young members of their families,the newspapers would have nothing to write about.

29. Whew!
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 5:13 PM/EST
alicia

Where do I begin? Johnizen it seems to me you were

a victim of Affirmative Action in that situation.

Apparently, the firm felt they should fill their

quota for minority WOMEN.The feelings you felt on

an individual level are the same feelings a white

man would have if his merit were disregarded

because of skin color. It would take the highest

form of magnanimity to shrug off losing a job

opportuniy, which would help to feed his

family,simply because minorities thru the ages

haven't gotten a fair shake. I think he would feel

the sting of discrimination just as much as anyone

else. 2 wrongs do not make a right.

It seems to me that many minorities or POC(only

albinos lack pigment) view whites as this massive,

homogenous force of bigotry. Lord knows there are

white bigots. A minute number have even been born

again into human beings. But for the most part the

majority of white people are just ordinary people

trying to survive and get along. Their ignorance

can sometimes be abysmal when it comes to other

"races" and/or cultures. Alot of them can feel the

animosity projected towards them. Some are

confused by "guilt". They are repulsed by the idea

of slavery, they dreamed with Martin Luther King,

they married a non-white because skin color was

not a factor in love matters. Yet to many, their

skin color will always designate them as

oppressors. They will always have to pay the price

for a shipload of Portuguese slavers or a Gen.

Custer or Columbus. To carve the society up in

"groups" enables us to ignore the faces and the

hearts. It's easy to condone affirmative action

when white=oppression. But take one person and

circumstance uniquely and you can see that this

policy benefits nonwhites at the expense of

whites.

30. affirmative action....hmmm
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 6:08 PM/EST
alicia

When the measures for dismantling affirmative

action practices passed in California I remember

hearing a young highschool student on the radio.

It was

just a soundbite. She was crying and wondering

how she was going to get into college now. She was

hispanic. I found it peculiar that her only way to

college would be by utilizing a policy which

placed her on campus because of the color of her

skin. Her intellectual capacity was not really

important and she had subconsciously bought into

this.

When I applied to UC Santa Barbara I checked all

applicable ethnicities on the color bar. I suppose

their quota for Native Americans had not been met.

That's what they chose to gleen from my mélange.

Then I began to speculate: "My God, this

institution doesn't even care whether I have

brains or not, they just needed some color on

campus!" Of course I wasn't the only one who

thought this. Lots of whites had the same opinion.

And then one woman proved my point by having a

full ride scholarship with a 1.7 grade point

average. She was hispanic. My friend who is white

had to work a restaurant job to pay tuition. She

ate what she brought home from work. She is

extremely intelligent. She tried to get grants but

her Dad made too much money. He hadn't finacially

cared for her since she was 6. It is not difficult

to see the unfairness of this. Jenn eventually

graduated, joined the Peace Corps in Africa for 2

years and is now pursuing her goals in San

Francisco. The girl with the 1.7 ave. didn't make

it through her second quarter.

31. affirmative action PT2
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 6:11 PM/EST
alicia

I know that minorities are at a disadvantage

educationally. But putting these people in a

setting where they must compete as if they'd had

all the opportunities in the world is another

disadvantage. This problem should be addressed at

the lower levels: grade school, junior high. Low

quality inner city schools should be upgraded.

Bring in the computers, disgard the out of date

text books, PAY teachers more money!!! Have more

remedial courses for ALL in need. Base NEED on

economic aspects not racial. Closing the gap of

disparity requires moving back to the point where

it occurred in the first place.THE FAMILY NEEDS TO

INSTILL THE IMPORTANCE OF EDUCATION!!!Perhaps this

young student on the radio would have known how

she was to get into college: Pass the grade.

There are many minorities who feel education is

for the white man. A small percent even feel

education is a sellout. There are so many people

of all colors who read nothing more profound than

the TV guide!

Sorry, I'm getting emotional and probably off the

point.

I want everyone to get a fair shake but I don't

want to see anyone put into a position where

failure is inevitable.And I personally do not like

being relegated to a "token filling the quota".

32. The power of one
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 7:07 PM/EST

Johnizen, I'm cheering for you and your

philisophy. You are a true leader. Yes! The power

of one, the power of family (extended, too) and

the power of community can be enormous. That's

what I feel. That's why I've been in social

services of one kind or another all my life. I

can't always see the results, but I just keep

planting seeds and hoping that if others keep

planting them too, good things will come.

Political change has a place too, sounds like Ben

is doing a lot of this. I'm less comfortable in

that world, but I'm glad coalitions exist and I

venture in from time to time - like helping our

local school pass their school bond.

33. UC Santa Barbara - A Little Off Topic
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 7:21 PM/EST
ben

They have a really well-designed Biopsycholgoy Dept., and it's fairly new (four years?). Beautiful campus. Okay, back to serious discussion :-)

34. To Alicia: affirmitave action-"Whew,part-1&part2"
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 7:37 PM/EST

Alicia,I agree with you to a point.The affirmitave action that you are talking about is not what I am talking about.I am talking about those highly motivated individuals that have achieved high levels in school despite their lack of educational resources.Alicia,regardless of our own personal experiences we as a nation have to make a very serious choice.Do we continue to give highly motivated multi-cultural individuals a chance to compete and learn at the highest levels of education,or do we continue to play this game

as if there is a level playing field.Did you stop to think,as I finally had to,that some of these individuals that got low s.a.t scores went on to graduate with higher scores than those with higher s.a.t scores coming into college.Alicia,getting into college does not guarantee success in college.But some smart individual high up realizes what I had to finally realize.It is cost effective to have a well trained surgeon who can be a role model for this country and it's children.Or we can have a highly intellegent,formerly motivated drug dealer who did all the right things but had the rug pulled from under him when he needed us most,because he just happened to thrive in an enviorment that did not have up to date books with all of it's pages.

35. To Alicia: continued-affirmative action?
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 4:17 AM/EST

Alicia,another reason why I had to change my strong points of view on affirmative action,is because of this.I asked myself,what is the best way to make a decision on this question.Answer.Put white people in a similar scenario,and based on historical actions,decipher how they would react.Alicia,imagine a true playing field in this country,everybody is equal.

The new s.a.t scores are out.80% of the highest

test scores are from asian and indian students.

Do you think for one minute that white americans

are going to allow 80% of the student body

of the most prestigeous universities in this

country go to non-whites.I can already see the news reports talking about:

"THE NEW NATIONAL SECURITY RISK."

36. Response to Alicia
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 11:29 AM/EST
criamama

Alicia, your last message was wonderful! I agree 100%, only wish I could have expressed my feelings as well as you.

37. to Johnizen - 80%
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 12:25 PM/EST
ben

You describe my department exactly. This year's influx is heavily East Indian, which is actually the rule, and not the exception in medicine (and science and math, for that matter). But, women make up more than half (the young guard).

38. Affirmative Action from a white gal
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 10:42 PM/EST

I have been reading the posts on this with

interest because I have mixed feelings about

affirmative action. I agree that the field needs

to be leveled to counteract prejudice, but I'd

like to see some checks and balances. Straight

quotas seem unfair. There must be more creative

ways to solve the problem, though I don't have the

answers. Affirmative Action should, ideally,

create opportunity while still maintaining some

guidelines for accountability.

Just a note on SATs - I find them of questionable

value as an indicator of how well anyone will do

in college. I'd rather see colleges and

universities go towards a portfolio process - more

work, but a more accurate picture of the person

and a better indicator of success.

39. To bbc: affirmative action,we need a better solution.
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 1:39 AM/EST

bbc,I too have mixed feelings about affirmative

action as the only solution.bbc I am what they

call a "TREKIE"(someone who watches star trek

and who reads science fiction).I long for the day

when we have a universal university system,where

everyone uses the same advanced textbooks,everyone

has their own school laptops,and most important,

everyone has to pass the same tests from grades

1 through 18.(MASTERS DEGREE LEVEL IS MANDATORY).

Computers and the internet can be the level playing field that we all dream about.Imagine

having access to 24 hours a day 7 d.a.wk tutors

on every subject without prejudice,with correct

information.Motivated Humans could reach the 18

levels of education at their own pace.All testing

will be done in a centralized area and monitored

for fairness.NO RACE,NO CLASS,NO GENDER,

JUST MIND AND MOTIVATION.I can't wait.

By the way,the first thing that should be taught

is HUMAN WORLD HISTORY.If everyone is taught the

entire history of the world from the beginning,

starting with Ethiopia,Egypt(KHEMET),GREECE,etc.

and leave nothing out,(good or bad),you will have

a truely educated human being.We will also realize

how far we really have come.Maybe it will add a

little more respect for where we need to go.

40. Another visionary
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 11:22 AM/EST

Alright, I'm also a big Star Trek fan, though I

wouldn't approach Trekie status. FYI I far prefer

Picard to the other captains...

All this discussion has given me a here and now

vision. Ben got me thinking about what I can do

in my own community. One thing that bothers me is

just how non-diverse our community is. We do have

some Native American kids in our school and a

number of white families have adopted children of

color, but it's pretty white.

What do you think of this idea? Make some

alliances with some churches or organizations in

the city - we're rural. Start up a summer camp

program that has storytelling, art, music, food,

discussion groups all having to do with different

cultural heritages. Get grants to start it up and

invite our local kids and the city kids to come

together for a week of sharing about

diversity.(Grandiose I know, but brainstorming has

to start somewhere.)

I'm going to post this on as a new topic too to

see if anyone else who may not be reading this

thread has some good ideas to share.

41. Are education and economicx the key?
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 8:47 AM/EST

This is my first venture into the relationship group. I joined on the last night of the series and am just now getting to read and post. I'm from a traditionally "mixed" fmaily. My father's white cousins interacted with us, as had their father with my grandfather. I have a granddaughter whose mother's parents came from Dublin. My concerns for her are strong.

As to the education/economics factor I have a theory that's floated in my mind since the 1960's. I once taught in Chicago. There was talk about the un-involved attitudes of black students, especially males. I noticed certain things and concluded-felt that the curriculum offered these kids made no connection with their realities AND they intuitively "knew" the content and principles were essentially meaningless to their deep existence, leading to another form of slavery. I mean regarding the grand scheme of life. This sounds weird I am sure and I only voiced it to a few other teachers during that time. I have interests in futurist studies, new science and metaphysics.The path society is on, materialism and greed, is,I think, ultimately a dead end. In some way I sensed that awareness in the eyes of many students. We're at the mercy of corporate minds. I may seem off-base, but my instincts/intuitiveness may have some validity.

My family has been relativly "well-off" for several generations, so I had no economic self-identification with my less "well-off" students. My "sensing" was based on knowing the "crap" we asked students to master and my human link to their personal experiences and, I'll say, souls. The school had Asian, Hispanic, Afr-American and a handful of Europeans. Students in all groups were in the "good student" group, but more Asians than others. Does anyone identify with any of this?

42. Are education and economics the key?
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 10:14 AM/EST

How I happened to view the final page of this area before the beginning I don't know. I've now read messages 1-41. I am impressed with the level of experience, information and, after interacting on folders in other areas, the civility and consideration of those here.

I'm one of those people who can see/find some validity within each person's thoughts and POV. Reading the posts is a revelation and may go a long way toward alleviating my pessimistic--even cynical view of the world's cocio-cultural-economic status--passing over the intellectual component. I haven't read Derrick Bell, but Ben's comments match much of my thought.

43. Are education and economics the key?
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 10:15 AM/EST

How I happened to view the final page of this area before the beginning I don't know. I've now read messages from the beginning. I am impressed with the level of experience, information and, after interacting on folders in other areas, the civility and consideration of those here.

I'm one of those people who can see/find some validity within each person's thoughts and POV. Reading the posts is a revelation and may go a long way toward alleviating my pessimistic--even cynical view of the world's socio-cultural-economic status--passing over the intellectual component. I haven't read Derrick Bell, but Ben's comments match much of my thought.

44. Are education and economics the key?
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 10:20 AM/EST

I apologize for the double post. I must have "hit" the button wrong.

45. Geri
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 6:01 PM/EST

Glad you joined in. You said in another post that

your concerns are different from some of us, so

called young people - I'm headed for 40 soon and

I'm not exactly feeling young! Anyway, I'd like

to hear what those concerns are, go ahead and take

the group in a new direction. How do you see

things through "older" eyes? You could start a new

topic.

Some suggestions for new topics? What would you

like to be able to do for your granddaughter?

What have you experienced that makes you feel life

hasn't changed so much as far as race? What do

you think are some answers to help steer away from

materialism, towards brotherhood?

I'll be looking for your post.

46. Disagreement with Ben
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 7:16 PM/EST

Ben wrote in post #11 "And by racism, let me be clear that I use it in its academic sense, the only definition I can see holding as valid in adiscussion like this, where only those in power, who determine the course of the economy, social constraints/freedoms, etc., i.e. whites, can be racist".

I think that power is relative. Individuals within a group (you can classify by gender, race, cultural identity, geography, religeon etc.) may hold varying degree of power relative to the people the individual interfacts with. I will give you a solid example. I have an uncle who owns a cosumer electronic repair business. He is Asian. He prefers to hire Asian technitians because according to him, they work harder, complain less, and are less likely to claim disability. In fact only a few White technitians has ever worked for him. Every one of them for very short periods. As the prospective employer, my uncle certainly is in the power position compared to the White job applicant. My uncle certainly influenced the economic status of all those White applicants.

I recently heard about a study looking at Blacks moving into predominantly Latino neighborhoods and vise versa in LA. The result showed the Blacks and Latinos discriminated against one another as much as Whites did during the 60s. Is the Latino renter any less humiliated when the Black proprietor/manager will not answer the door?

However, as more Whites hold position of power at every level of our society, I can see how this gives an impression that Whites run the country. When in fact individual Whites run a company, manage a department, shape government policy he/she is involved in etc. Together these individual actions affect our econimic, political and social movement as a nation.

47. Disagreement with Ben cont.
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 8:01 PM/EST

Minorities shape this country as well. Look at how the growth of the Spanish speaking population affects California. Or how our country struggles to deal with the large percentage of young Black males in our prisions. The difference is that no one attributes the word policy to these forces.

I can see why some Whites feel threatened by discussion of White racism. A lot of Whites in the middle of the barrel or at the buttom of the barrel probably don't feel very powerful. All they try to do stay afloat in the diluge of life. Yet they see themselves labeled racist. It is almost unnatural not to resent.

I have heard comments that many problems in our country are actually class problems disguissed as race problems and I thint there is merit in this argument. Our history of slavery certainly looms in the background, but I don't think it overshadows the class struggles on the economic ladder.

48. kilamanjaro i agree
Sat, Oct 2, 1999 - 7:41 PM/EST
alicia

I believe it is a class issue as well.

Unfortunately the levels below contain a

disporportionate number of minorities. This could

possibly be explained: Slavery ended only 150

years ago.Most Blacks were given freedom but had

no tools to forge a future. The atmospshere was

thick with racism and resentment from most whites.

Time has done a great job of eroding these two

elements. Blacks have made great gains and Whites

have been exposed to Blacks and found their own

ignorance dissapating. But it's only been 150

years. I'm not speaking for all Whites nor all

Blacks.Alot of Hispanics have recently arrived to

this country from their own country in which they

were suffocating under poverty.There is a huge

language barrier in many cases and only menial

jobs can be acquired. This would more than likely

put alot of them on the lower levels of our

economic system.As for Asians, and this is, of

course my own theory: They came from culture in

which national pride is a stong foundation. To

fail would be an embarrassment to the family and

ultimately their "race". This works when

homogeniety is stressed over individuality.This is

why I feel that Asian immigrants are so successful

in this country and abroad.

I feel there are alot of psychological factors at

work. If your great-great grandfather was a slave

and the color of your skin denotes that, then you

will always feel the need to prove your worth.I

also believe dwelling on the injustices of the

past creates a murky present and a dim future.

49. I agree pt 2
Sat, Oct 2, 1999 - 7:44 PM/EST
alicia

My brother is black, a West Point graduate, a

Captain in the army by age 26. He owns 2 homes and

is essentially a self taught realator. He was

hired by an agency even though he hadn't taken any

exams. I asked him about racism. He responded:

"It's out there but I don't dwell on it". He

concentrates on acheiving his goals. When

something gets in his way he finds a way to go

around or through it. I have seen him treat

EVERYONE he meets with respect.I see him as a role

model for all people who would like to take

control of their lives. It is not up to the whites

to get out of the way so blacks can move up. It's

up to the individual to have the gumption to

strive beyond all hinderances.

I hope I didn't ramble.

50. I mostly agree with your agree
Mon, Oct 4, 1999 - 11:27 AM/EST

Blacks have made giant strides since abolition, although there are setbacks as well. I remeber reading that after segragration affluent Black neighborhoods and businesses declined because affluent Blacks could begin to shop and live where the Whites do. Hence there was a sense that the Black community declined. Obiously ending racial segragation will benefits us all in the long run, but sometimes the temporary setbacks can be hard. I am glad to hear that your brother is doing so well. I think his attitude is exemplary.

One more note. I have been told by activists in the Asian community that not all Asians do so well (No data to back this up). Although we are over represented in higher education and in certain white collar professions, there is a large lower class. The super hardworking and studious Asian is as much a stereotype as the lazy and dumb Black. I certainly do not work harder and am no smarter than my coworkers.

51. Education and economics
Wed, Oct 6, 1999 - 7:01 PM/EST

Last night I watched a PBS program on the effects of California's Proposition Nine that disallowed reference to race in admissions. (I reject the word "preference." That's a red herring, sour grapes and a lie. I know that mistakes were made in administring affirmative action. But given the history for the nation to expect perfection immediately is/was ignorance. PBS followed high school seniors of various "classes" to see how they fared in gaining admission to UC Berkeley. I think there's a discussion of this type on that program.

I'm sorry this is ending. It's a valuable medium and could use a lot more exposure. Good luck to everyone.

52. Education & Economics: let's tell the truth.
Thu, Oct 7, 1999 - 2:45 AM/EST

HI EVERYBODY,

I HAD A PROBLEM GETTING BACK INTO GROUP 9

BECAUSE OF ONLINE MALFUNCTIONS,But I Finally

made it back in to say goodbye & good luck

to everyone.This event has shown me that we are moving boldly into the future,and we are not alone. In this thread I beleive that the ultimate solution will be to create a business minded

atmosphere within the ranks of the entire

multicultural underclass.We live in a capitalist

system.Why do most people have to wait for college to find out how the world of money really

works.A group of mentors should be assigned to

every school to teach children the value of

money,savings,investing,self-employment,

and the values of good credit.let's tell the truth.Education & business knowledge is the key.

53. Education & Economics: Cont.
Thu, Oct 7, 1999 - 3:29 AM/EST

The ultimate goal that we all have is to create

a safe kind of SHANG-RA-LA where everyone gets

along and all of our human needs are met.This

may be the most naive statement that I can make,

but maybe we should outlaw hatred.

Maybe we can finally eliminate this thing by osmossis(everyone begins to love one another by making believe that we love one another.)

Anyway,I believe in not wasting any human potential that can have the possibility of benifitting the whole.The family is the key.

SelF-Esteem should rule.Education should never end,the more you know,the more you can share.

Even though this group is about to end,

I must say it has been a learning experience for me.Intelligence,knowledge & thoughtfulness is what

I have received from this group.

We are of many shades,but of like mind.We all want this experiment of Multi-Culturalism to work.

I would also like to add my final belief.

Anything that we do as a human species,

that does not include SPIRITUALITY

at it's base,will fail.

BEFORE YOU CAN BUILD,YOU MUST HAVE A BLUEPRINT.

GOOD LUCK.

54. Education and economic
Thu, Oct 7, 1999 - 9:07 AM/EST

johnizen,

It's too bad this is ending. I enjoyed reading your comments when I entered this area. Your comments about being in a capitalist system and your goals for everyone are real.

My thoughts are that capitalism, as it is now practiced and has been since its beginnings, whether called mercantalism or private enterprise, has been a mixed situation. The competitive nature of the system has functioned more as greed, as in slavery and exploitation of workers. I'm a balance type person. Maybe being a Libra has helped, but the teachers and reading I've had are more important. I think that balance, a more humanely developed system is the route. People want to be in control of their destiny and many want to contribute to others. The "best" of some kind of communal system along with incentives for people to reap the rewards of their own work, while limiting greed is, I think a worthy goal. It is, to me, obscene for single persons or a small group to control such vast wealth as is now the norm. We haven't anything like a balance although there is much in the history and literature of progressive, humane thinkers and writers that can provide an on-going, flexible blueprint for a more productive future for humankind. This is where education is vital. The culture teaches, almost exclusively, outmoded concepts and competitive ideals. There are models of communal living that work. There are scholars who can offer much. They are ignored while the most selfish, deceitful people and organization flourish at the expense of the vast majority. I'm no "communist" as most comprehend that system. I think and believe we can have someting better, racially, economicaly, personally than the muck we allow. The best to you.

55. Less-capital systems.
Fri, Oct 8, 1999 - 3:06 PM/EST

Geri,

I like you because you take so many firm positions which I can bounce off of.

Please leave your e-mail at the private thread for that purpose so we can continue this conversation.

If you choose not to, I have condensed my three page essay and summarized as follows. I think your approach has a slight tendency to go against parts of human nature as ingrained as love and acceptance.

My upmost respect to you, if not my complete agreement.

(Showing 1-55 of 55)

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