Topic #11. Narrowmindedness within your family--how do you deal with it....
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1. Narrowmindedness within your family--how do you deal with it....
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 12:29 PM/EST

SusanV brought up a point about the narrowmindedness of people who don't accept her and her family, and I wanted to make this a topic of discussion. I understand your point quite well, but the narrow minded people I have to face in the south are in my own family, and I have always known and loved them...I do not love them any less because they feel the way they do..they have always felt that way, and I have always known it. I just want to illustrate this point because when people in your own family don't accept, it can make life very hard. I'm going to say something here that might not be very popular, but is nonetheless true in my case. Our daughter was born very light skinned, and though I would love her desperately no matter what color she was, it makes things easier with my relatives that she is light. When they look at her, they don't have to see a black person. cotd...

2. cotd...
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 12:30 PM/EST

I tried to explain this to my mother one day, and she said, "Why do we need to discuss this, I don't want to talk about it." Let me say..I know this is wrong!! When I look at her, I totally see her father in her, I think of her as the best of both of us. I learned pretty quickly after her birth though, the polotics that would go along with raising her. My husband's mother has made innocent remarks as well, that are just as upsetting, such as, "I'm afraid to take her out by myself because people may think i've kidnapped her." Or last Christmas Madison and I went to her company party, and she commented to the man sitting at her side, that while all the families looked alike, and you could tell they were families, her's didn't. Now I love this woman, she's a great MIL for the most part, and has a wonderful sense of humor. But I have always felt it would be much easier for her if Madison were darker...and maybe too, in the future, easier for Madison...or harder..I don't know that, and can't know. But what I want to say is when the narrowmindedness is in your own family, you can't just brush it off, because you can't deny your own family--or shouldn't in my opinion. I will always want Madison to know my family, because I want her to know where I come from--because where I come from has a great deal to do with the person I am. I still love the people I grew up with. I don't hate them back for hating my husband and not being able to sit in the same room with him...if I did that, I would be just getting down on their level. But how to deal with people you have to see on a somewhat regular basis, who refuse to learn and grow? I'm interested to know your thoughts.

3. Go where the love is
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 5:44 PM/EST
jacqueline

Because my husband has a very large family, their reactions to our relationship are all over the map. His sister and I are best friends and his mother treats me as if I were her own. His father balances precariously between disapproval and acceptance, his half brother flirts scandalously with me and one of his aunts showed some disappointment when she learned that I wasn't from some place "exotic" like "Jamaica."

My strategy for dealing with all of this is to go where the love is. I have developed close relationships with those who were open to it and have created somewhat formal, polite relationships with the others. That's the best that I can do. I just don't have the emotional toughness to be vulnerable to personal rejection within the family. It's much easier to keep my distance. I guess that I am just lucky that the family members that I like, like me back.

Bethanie, it seems like you have more patience for the ones who "refuse to learn and grow." Polite distance from them is the only thing that makes sense to me. You have to protect Madison until she is old enough to understand "what's up with them."

One last thing Bethanie, while I agree that it is not appropriate to hate the people who hate, I do thing that you should formulate a clear position on the matter. I would have a big problem if my husband continued anything more than an aquaintance with someone who was openly hostile to me. To me, it's a matter of respect for our union and the family that we are. I guess what I'm getting at is that it is possible to be too understanding, too patient.

4. Jacqueline..
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 6:55 PM/EST

I couldn't agree more with you. And I do make it clear in my actions when spending time with family members who are less than understanding and accepting that my husband and daughter will always be my first priority. I have one aunt who has made subtle comments about my daughter on every trip we have taken to MS. I was patient with her for a while, trying to give her time to adjust, but this last time she wouldn't let up. She just kept making comments about how it was clear Madison didn't like her--OKAY?? My daughter is a two year old toddler who basically bases her decisions about people totally on how much fun they are to be around. Well, after the umpteenth time of hearing this back in May, and just about having been pushed as far as my own sense of tolerance and respect for other's feelings (based on my Christian upbringing that it is not our place to judge others) would take me. Well, she said it again, looked at her gun toating wonder of a husband and said, "Madison just doesn't like me." I looked at her and said, "Maybe it's your attitude." Let me also say that since my own family live in MS, and I in WA, I end up spending maybe two weeks a year in their presence. And I accept the fact that there are certain of them that I just will not see anymore, as they do not want me in their life. It is after all, their loss.

Bethanie

5. Bethanie
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 8:00 PM/EST

I have an easier time accepting the narrow opinions from my older relatives. I understand that they learned in their time that white people were here and colored people were there. Maybe they are too old to change their ways. The same is true for my husband's family. The older relatives remember a very different world where white people dominated, and colored knew their place. What I have a hard time accepting is younger people that know how wrong it is to hate someone just because of their color. And I will not make excuses for these people, but will avoid them at all costs.

I also try to empathize with what it must be like for my husband, knowing that someone will not talk to you or shake your hand because of your skin color.

As I said before, there have been a number of people, my family included, that have become more open minded since getting to know my husband. Marrying a black man, and having biracial children, more or less forced those who love me and are close to me, to accept Mike and our relationship.

I like to think that our relationship, on one level, has helped people to have a better understanding of two different races. And from a Christian point of view, isn't that what Jesus wants us to do?

6. susanv--
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 11:00 PM/EST

I totally agree with you..In order to make a clearer stab at having my own family situation understood, I would have to plot out all the oddities of my families peculiar dynamics. And I wouldn't think of boring you with such details. Let me just say, that those of my family who count the most, my brother, sister father and mother, do except my husband as family. It took some doing for my mother and father to come around, but none the less, they have impressed me with their abilities at changing. The family members I am talking about are older extended family...they do not change as easily, and growing up where things were just the way they were, no questions asked, has not made them particularly eager to change. Here's my philosophy. I try and show the same care and respect to all people, that's the way I have always been. And while I always put my husband and daughter first, I also want my daughter to learn this kind of care and respect for others. If I can teach her that, I think I will really have done something. I don't mean for her learn to let people walk all over her, but to know to respect other people's beliefs and feelings while at the same time protecting herself from harm. I think we could all learn to do this a little more, myself included.

7. Narrowmindedness within your family--how do you deal with it....
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 1:21 AM/EST
smoothtap

This subject is a tough one because you have to deal with each person on a case-by-case basis. My wife was given a choice at 18 to live at home, pay for her school and even take her to NY to meet a nice Italian guy, or continue to see me and leave the house with nothing but the clothes on her back. As you can see she chose me. My father in law did not want her to date me at all. They refused to come to our wedding. The one thing that makes me very proud of my wife is that during these painful times she stood up for the choices she made. She told them I was in her life and we were going to be a couple whether they accepted it or not. Granted, it was the hard road and it took over a year for them to come around to even speak, but when they realized she was very serious and that she was going to be with me it was no longer an issue. I really believe that they only want the best for their child and worried about the loss of “white privilege” or in most blacks case “selling out”. They didn’t realize that the loss of privilege was worth the love that we give to each other everyday. I guess what I’m trying to say is that if you make a choice you have to stand up and let everyone know that it was your choice and that’s it. Once they realize that you’ve accepted it then it easier for them to accept it and move on. Today my FIL and me are OK, he tells everyone but me that I am the best son in law he has ever had. Now when my wife and I disagree my in-laws usually take my side, funny twist of fate (ha ha). Although I know my FIL and me are not real close we have developed a real good relationship based on respect and life is now good for all.

8. Narrowmindedness/Family Tensions
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 1:31 PM/EST
kusuf

I want to begin by saying that though I looked forward to the discussions that would take place here I have not yet joined in, partly because of time restraints and partly because of the medium through which it's taking place. So I have just read along and have neglected participating until now.

I have read through the above entries and I find a lot of tolerance for the narrowmindedness in mixed families expressed, and I do not share this. Race is the most important issue in this country and the behavior of my own family, though yes, it is objectively understandable because of fear, desire for assimilation, etc., is to me unforgiveable . My father's parents were Arab immigrants earlier this century. He and his parents and family were targets of racism. But he married a white French/American women, my mother and tried, I suppose, to assimilate as best he could. But in the course of this assimilation there were many things which were ignored, and and as is well known there is quite a lot of self-hatred among minorities, one effect of which is the distancing of oneself and one's family from the issues of race and heritage and trying to overlook behavior which is directed towards the minority groups in the name of getting on with life.

Many people say that we have come a long way since beating and hanging foreign immigrants or former slaves, or any member of a group who is not strictly 'white,' but I strongly disagree—I feel that the same behavior has simply gone subterraenean, but is still there, and any adult who as part of a family still actively contributes to an attitude of racism is wrong and should be adamantly told so.

Continued...

9. Narrowmindedness/Family Tensions
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 1:33 PM/EST
kusuf

Continuation...

This is not 'going down to their level;' it is the proper thing to do, for everyone's sake, because what would these people of whom you speak above so tolerantly do if they saw a minority being attacked on the street? I seriously doubt that someone who was a casual racist or who casually expressed views which skirted the boundaries of racism, whether explicit or tacit, would stick their neck out to help someone in need.

I simply do not think that cowardice and hatred, though indeed a part of life, ought to be encouraged at any price, for family unity or whatever, and I am very tired of the cliché 'going down to their level.' I no longer speak to my father or my mother, or any of my brothers because there is no way, any longer, that I will share in any sort of collusion with the mindset which engenders murder and dispossession. We as adults are ALWAYS responsible for our actions, and we all have to pay for what is done in our name. I gave my family members many opportunities, by speaking in depth with them, to amend their views but when, in the end, they didn't, and did not renounce harsh views of minorities and the underprivileged (which ironically my brothers and I are among but my mother will not acknowledge), I wrote them off as a great danger to themselves and others and thought 'If this is the path they want to take, then let them take it.' But I want to make it absolutely clear that I will not condone the suppression of or violence against anyone for reasons of race, sexual orientation, religion, etc., under any circumstances, even among my own family, nor do I believe that it should be tolerated in other families.

10. To Kusuf
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 9:49 PM/EST
jacqueline

For some strange reason, your post made me feel extremely defensive, despite the fact that I stand firmly behind the choices that I have made in my family. I don't tolerate expressions of racism in my presence, nor does my husband. But I have gotten to the point in my life where if a person can manage to treat me with respect, I am not overly concerned with what they "think."

I have found that most racist beliefs are pretty intractable. The average person that have prejudices against minorities groups does not consider themselves racist. And when you present yourself as an example of the error in their ways, they typically toss you into the exception category and continue believing as they always had. (Note: I am not unwilling to believe that I lack the necessary finesse to successfully deal with these situations).

The bottom line for me is that I am unwilling to make my family life into a war zone. None of the members of my family are perfect, myself included. For the most part, they are patient with me and I am patient with them. Anyone who seeks to cause us harm is excluded from our life, PERIOD. But, those with basically good intentions, who suffer from a lack of exposure, don't always say the right thing, don't really "get it" , etc. are welcome to stay.

I guess we all make our choices.

11. narrowmindedness is extremely annoying to handle
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 1:56 AM/EST
claddarng

Hi, I'm sorry I haven't posted anything until now, but it's because I was having a hard time just getting in this site. Anyway, I find that most people, of course not all, are narrowminded to a degree. I had a very close friend at one time. He no longer was a close friend when someone that we mutually knew was making a big stink about me married to a Jewish man with me being Catholic & having uncles & an aunt as clergy. The mutual friend was a supervisor at a large corporation in New York City. Well, as this jerk was ranting & raving about my marital status, my "close friend" was just laughing at me and not saying or doing anything about the remarks that were said. Now, I thought that this "close friend" would be someone who respected my wishes to marry a Jewish man, considering he came to my wedding, would not be so narrowminded, but he failed in the end. I am quite surprised on the ignorance of many people I know, that have made remarks to me, as well as, remarks about other races. I wish people could open their eyes, and see that these remarks only hurt people and it causes a seperation. Who cares, what the make-up of people are? As long, as you can get along with them, what difference does their background have anything to do with?? I agree with Jacqueline "where everyone makes their own choices".

12. Wow, I've missed a lot here...
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 2:57 AM/EST

This is mostly for kusuf. I don't know what to say, except that you took my breath away. I'm sorry that you think I express tolerance for the racist people in my family. I think I stated that I no longer see the racist people in my family..that they are no longer a part of my life, partially because they choose not to be, and partially because(and this is most important to me) I will not allow my daughter to be threatened by their views or the dangers which knowing them my present to her or her sense of self. I was mainly speaking to those of my family who though have come around to 'accepting' my husband and I, still occasionally make offhanded remarks that make me uncomfortable. I generally answer these remarks with as much candor as possible, but sometimes the dynamics of my family make openness about such matters difficult.

Here's something else I would like to point out. I choose not to live my life in anger. I could very easily do that. I could easily get angry over every stupid question or remark or lear. But I don't. I think one of the big failures of interracial marriages, and I'm sure others will correct me on this, is that the marriage, once the novelty of being the 'mixed' couple wears thin, is really made of nothing. And that if you make your marriage into a forum for your social and political views, ie, marrying someone to prove a point, and then facing the world angry at it with your spouse, it just doesn't work. So I choose to be maybe more forgiving than I should of some, to preserve the peace that I have with my husband..that is, I may get upset at what is said or done, but after all is said and done, I leave Mississippi and go back to my husband--and I am always grateful to get there. I simply cannot live my life battleing everyone. Therefore I choose my battles carefully.

Hope you understand this, and I guess I was made to feel a bit defensive myself.

Bethanie

13. For Bethanie & Jacqueline
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 9:54 AM/EST
kusuf

Why defensive? It's not an attack. But I'm certain that these things begin in families, and ultimately I think that's where they'll have to end. Family unity places demands on everyone, from the most uncompromising to the most timid, and depending on the situation someone, or everyone, is going to get hurt. There is no way to avoid this pain. My response to both of you, and anyone else whom I haven't addressed specifically, is fundamentally I will not give lip-service to anyone, no matter who they are, over the issues of racial or any other kinds of prejudice — not for peace, not so my son can know his grandparents (or my wife's family, one grandfather of which, by the way, offered to pay for the vasectomy of the husband of one of his granddaughters who had married a black man). Though this is said tongue-in-cheek, even Hitler was a nice guy sometimes, or, conversely, no one is all bad.

Continued...

14. For Bethanie & Jacqueline, cont.
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 10:06 AM/EST
kusuf

Continued...

Yes, we do all make our choices, but I didn't really think that this forum would be a celebration of our gifts for the obvious. I wanted, or hoped, to get close to the heart of the matter — but I know that's asking a lot. I am not at all concerned with coded language of black youth, native american, etc.—"Whaz up," "You goin' to the Rez?" It reminds me very much of the common white youth trip here in Seattle: colored hair, begging on the street as a sign of coolness, platform shoes. They are, as do most minorities, stereotyping themselves and, I don't think it's such a stretch of the imagination, doing EXACTLY what the powerful and bigoted want, i.e., wasting their time on the petty things while others make, and keep, the rules. Divide and conquer is as old as hatred, and one of its best tools. So I want to end by saying this: I am reminded very strongly of a documentary I saw of PBS about the protests against the Vietnam War in which a priest was exhorting his parishioners to protest. They complained to him that if they did they would go to prison, and what then would happen to their children? they asked. His response was, "What's going to happen to them if you don't?" That response sums up every reason why I joined this discussion.

15. For Kusuf: perhaps we are dealing with a gender gap
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 12:01 PM/EST
jacqueline

I just re-read yours, bethanie's and my posts, and at the risk of over generalizing, I think that we are experiencing a gender gap in the way that we perceive these issues. I think that we basically agree that expressions of racism cannot be tolerated. But beyond that, it seems that our gender roles may be shaping our opinions. (Be patient because I am about to make a huge generalization). In my family, supported by observation of other families, men tend to be the warriors and women the peacemakers.

Even though I can be quite the warrior in my professional life, I am much more a peacemaker at home. Kusuf, you remind me a lot of my own husband. For example, when we were first married and looking for an apartment, my white skin privileged, upper middle class husband experienced discrimination for the first time in his charmed life. An apartment owner who had been thrilled to rent to him when he was alone saying, "you're just the kind of person we want here," completely changed his tune when he understood that the black girl over there was the wife ("is SHE you wife?"). My husband went to war. He contacted the fair housing board, the media, a lawyer, and even a friend at the Justice Department (I am not kidding). He was ready for hand to hand combat to teach this guy a lesson.

He was extremely confused when I told him that I was okay with him pursuing punishment for the guy, but I didn't want to force him to allow us to live in the apartment. He say something like 'we have to pursue this to the end or he will never understand. Just getting money damages is not enough.' While I understood the logic of his point, I was not willing to have my home be ground zero of the "race war."

16. For Kusuf: cont'd
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 12:03 PM/EST
jacqueline

I say that understanding that there are many, many, people who sacrificed their personal peace to intergrate colleges, neighborhoods, workplaces, etc. I understand that I am benefitting from their courage to do something that I am unwilling to do. I am not ashamed to say that such is not my calling. I have many talents that I have offered to the struggle. John Milton said, "they also serve who stand and wait." In modern colloquy, I take it to mean that there are many ways to be a part of the solution. Your way is not my way. Despite that, I believe that we both can be effective.

Some wisdom is quiet.

17. kusuf...
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 12:12 PM/EST

I can't imagine anyone in my family that I still have the pleasure of knowing, making comments of this kind. ie, the comment about a viscectomy. I would never tolerate that remark or any remark of that nature, and would never be willing to compromise myself or my family in that way. By my family, I mean my husband and daughter--they are the people I live with, and they are the people closest to my heart.

I think I have repeatedly stated that I believe that what lies at the heart of my family's 'beliefs' is their ignorance and their steeping in old way Southern Baptist values...That they haven't had the honor of knowing many outside their race. I have always thought that the only way to fight ignorance is with education. I sincerely believe my family is a loving and accepting one, that they sometimes make comments out of misunderstanding and lack of knowledge I can put up with..

you say this starts and ends in the family?

I believe that without my family's (and my husband's, who's mother has been a big part of our life since we moved to Seattle, and who I love dearly, though she also makes racially motivated comments out of her 'old school' beliefs) support, despite their failings, life would be a lot harder for my husband and I. We have enough to think about having to face the outside world..if we had to face that without the support of our families, it would be a lot harder. I think I should have been clearer in saying that my family has come around a lot, and that for the most part they are supportive of our relationship, and maybe that way, I would not be reexplaining myself at this juncture. Maybe I should have titled this topic, facing ignorance in your family, instead of narrowmindedness, because that's what I believe it is.

Bethanie

18. Jacqueline...
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 12:28 PM/EST

I took up your husband's point of view when we moved to Michigan and for the first time faced all out discrimination from all areas. It was really the first time in my life too that I had faced it, and I tended to take up a reactionary stance. But I quite agree with you. I will never make my household the barracks of a race war. I really believe that is just too much responsibility to put on any one couple. And that's what I was talking about with the 'failings' of interracial marriages. This is not to say I 'tolerate' racism, but just that I have a different way of dealing with it.

Kusuf, we live in Seattle as well, and last fourth of July, my husband went to pick up our car from the mechanic, he was supposed to meet the mechanic there. Well, my husband didn't come home. After six hours of being frantic with worry, he finally showed up at the door, looking more devastated than I've ever seen him. He had been 'detained' by the police for waiting for the mechanic. In the end he was able to talk his way out of being arrested, but my biggest fear is that the day might come when he won't be able to do so, and so I always advise him to 'remain calm' in such instances..not because I believe he owes it to anyone, or that it doesn't make me angry as hell, but because I don't want to lose him. So I agree with Jacqueline, that I will always go the 'peaceful' route of dealing with situations, because I'm trying to hold my family together. And I think that is what most women try to do--call me sexist, but that is none the less, my belief.

19. REPLY
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 1:05 PM/EST
smoothtap

AsI sit here and read these postings and I have to ask, are we here to convince everyone that our way is right or are we attempting to share experiences and gain an understanding? Life is what we are exposed to everyday, not what we would like it to be if it were a perfect world. In our attempt to show the world that blacks come from all different backgrounds we keep describing lower class blacks negatively. Just because a person chooses to stay in the hood and use slang doesn't make him/her bad. That's just one of the many facets of our culture. The only reason why it’s a big issue among some blacks is because it is the majority lives it and upper class blacks are trying to overcome the stigma. I think that’s is a good thing. But in the process please don't make other people look bad for not choosing the same direction.

20. "I gave my family members many opportunities..."
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 12:10 PM/EST

I think there is a pretty common gender gap. Whatever is natural and cultural, men are often more aggressive but we now live in an age when agility of mind counts far more - and men can learn this too.

Kusuf said something very scary to my ears:

> I gave my family members many opportunities, by

> speaking in depth with them, to amend their views

> but when, in the end, they didn't, and did not

> renounce harsh views of minorities and the

> underprivileged (which ironically my brothers and

> I are among but my mother will not acknowledge),

> I wrote them off as a great danger to themselves

> and others and thought 'If this is the path they

> want to take, then let them take it.'

,,, is what he said.

Kusuf is acting as judge and jury and he isn't so far from executioner?

Kusuf - by ignoring the progress in dealing with racism this country has had you run many risks - like equating the means of yesterday, civil war, with today, non-violent protest or even dialogue. Look at the progression - revolutions of confederated states... civil war... ending slavery and suffrage movement... civil rights.... Have any of these been enough? No. But do they build on eachother? Absolutely! Certainly we need to bring this transformation home. But home cannot be a place of war and violence. Purity of heart, chastity of soul and freedom of spirit i think are the things we have to learn in this age. Tolerance is not enough and tolerance has no place in a family.

21. Some Things Never Change
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 10:58 PM/EST

My parents live 350 miles from me and have for most of my adult life. I keep in touch with them but have learned over the years that there are certain topics about which they just don't want to know. For example, I am a recovering alcoholic, sober now over ten years. This is the singlemost important accomplishment of my life to date as everything I am today, I am because I am sober. However, as they chose to turn their heads and ignore my drinking, they find my sobriety to be an equally distasteful subject.

When I started seeing my fiance, I mentioned him to them in conversation but did not disclose his race...didn't know where this was going and could see no point in "getting them started". However, when finally my mother asked me directly "What does he look like", I told her. First came the silence, then the big sigh and finally the "Oh Donna." She began relating to my sister's experience 20 years ago and how it disrupted the family (I had a rich uncle who disowned my sister when she married a black man). I couldn't believe it, yet was not surprised.

When I told them that we were serious and that we were planning on being married (no date set, right now the committment is enough for us both!!) she really reacted. The thing is, I am not a child nor at the age of fifty will I be having any so what is the problem???? SHe simply will not acknowledge that her ideas are racist in nature, simply that there will be trouble because we "come from different backgrounds."

So, this doesn't stop. The reaction is the same. They are still afraid of "what the neighbors will think." They are older and I don't want them unduly stressed about me, but I still want to share the good stuff with them. It bothers me but I have come to accept their attitudes as their attitudes.

Donna Lou

22. Donna Lou...
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - /EST

Same here. Some things my family just doesn't want to discuss. They realized a long time ago I think, that my opinions and views were wildly different from theirs, and I think decided at that time that they would just not talk about certain issues with me. Race is one of these issues. While they have learned to accept my husband into their home, and even to love him..and they cherish the time they have with our daughter...they will simply not be bothered to discuss the racism that still is present in our extended family units, in a way that might help the visiting situations that my daughter and I have to go into two to three times a year. I don't think it's that they don't care, or that they want to see us uncomfortable when we do visit, I think it's just that they have trouble discussing things that have in past generations, been 'off-limits.' Your alcoholism is a case in point...I think probably your parents are in much the same situation. Sometimes older people still see the world as it was twenty years ago..they don't see enough of it to see that attitudes DO and HAVE changed. So the topics of conversation that made them uncomfortable twenty years ago still do. Alcoholism for instance, was something that was by and large ignored just scant years ago. People just pretended their spouses, parents and children didn't have a problem..same with the race issue, it was simply not polite dinner conversation. Now everything's fair game, and I think the old simply have trouble changing with the times...

What are your thoughts on this...

Bethanie

23. Bethanie
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 11:55 AM/EST

I definitely agree. My parents are in their 70's and when they were youg, people didn't date across religious lines to a point where Baptists didn't date Methodists...that hard a line. My grandmother, who was raised a Catholic, met and married a Swedish Lutheran immigrant in 1919 at the age of 20. Not only that, but he rode a motorcycle!!! The family was horrified and tried in vain to annul the marriage and "talk her back into her senses" (her words). She was stubborn, though and they were married for 45 years when he died. It is strange that when my sister married interracially in 1979, my grandmother was not real supportive. I tried to talk to her and show here this similarities between her choices and my sister's but she never did see them. She has been dead now nearly 20 years so I don't have to deal with her reaction.

Getting involved in this relationship has brought me great joy. If I had avoided this, I would have missed out on so much (including this forum) and I would have been the loser. My parents cannot see that. They say they want me to be happy but when I tell them that I am, that doesn't seem to work. I am 50 years old after all and no longer need their approval (if I ever did). I cannot change another person's opinions or ideas. I can only change the way I react to them. I can be an example, however and help others to understand about these issues.

People who have never been in an IR relationship do not understand that, for the most part, race is a non-issue. We work, play, love, cry etc. etc. just like every other couple. As Bill put it, our main difference is that I am a woman, my love is a male (also a Scorpio vs. my Taurus which makes for an interesting mix!!!) If our difference were simply eye or hair color, would it be an issue??? No, that is how we deal with race at home. Once in a while the outside world intrudes, but not often.

Donna Lou

24. Donna Lou..
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 1:00 PM/EST

I couldn't agree more with everything you said here. I am currently in the most normal, grounded and loveing relationship I have ever been in--that it is with someone outside my race, is to me a non-issue. I also believe in setting an example for family members who made need some 'help' getting it. I truely believe the example I have set for loving my husband and daughter, and the way they love me, has changed the lives of my family members for ever. When I visit my family in Mississippi with my daughter (still too poor for the three of us to make this trip together), they see me being a good mother to her, and puting her first and they know she is the light of my life. This has done more for them than all of my preaching at them ever could. Every time I visit, Aunts and Uncles are more excepting, so I know I am making a difference. Anyway, just wanted to thank you for sharing your opinion and let you know I understand where you're coming from.

B

25. dynamic converssation
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - /EST
Lauren

I think that this is one of this group's best converssations. I appreciate Bethanie's and Jacqueline's comprehensiveness and processing while they're respecting their families and their choices. My spouse isn't black, so I haven't had to deal with the virulence they have, but my mother's family was pretty thrown off by my marriage choice.

At first, my immigrant Irish grandmother tried to talk John into marrying a "nice Oriental girl" and my mother had some pretty hateful comments to make. While I kept some relationship with my grandmother, who was over 90 at the time and is now dead, I never took my kids to see her directly because of her racism. It's ironic that the struggling, discriminated-against immigrant was the most outspoken about my relationship (of course, not to my face). But why would I ever expose my kids or myself to that kind of hurtfulness from someone so important? The other family members I wrote off completely, unless they werre willing to come around to respect for our family, and my husband. It was comparatively easy, though, because the family I am closest to is my dad's, which never expressed any problem with it.

Having interracial grandkids has turned my dad from a really ignorant suburban white guy, who taught me songs as a child that I didn't even know were racist until he told me not to sing them in front of black people, to someone who is really aware now that these problems exist and advocates for more equality, albeit in a pretty clumsy way. I do think that it's a lot of progress on his part.

Finally, I thinkk that the depiction of Kusuf as a warrior is excellent. I am really glad that there are people outthere like him who are so vigilant and confrontational about these issues. Sometimes we need people like him to push things to the next level.

26. con't
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - /EST
Lauren

Bethanie, I want to tell you that I totally sympathize with what you and your husband went through when he was detained by the police. Through my husband, I've learned how racist many police forces are and how at risk most non-white Americans feel around them.

Because he is a lawyer and bilingual, he gets calls from other Korean Americans who have police problems. In one case, a policeman stole from a merchant and then beat up the merchant for confronting him about it (okay, for jumping on his car trying to get the good back). In another case, a man was stopped without cause and beaten for no reason at all. White people really don't believe that this happens, or that it is based on race. It does, and it is.

It is a totally different experience than a white suburban woman would have, but this is something that I never knew. I think that people like Kusuf get out there and agitate to bring this sort of thing to people's consciousness, even when they're not going willingly into this parallel universe, as we are.

27. harrassment by the police - Lauren and Bethanie
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 9:48 AM/EST

I think this could be another topic. But I know exactly what you mean about police harrassment. I get worried whenever Mike is coming home later than usual, wondering if he got stopped by the police.

We had a very controversial incident occur here in Pittsburgh a few years ago when a black man was driving a jaguar late at night. He was stopped by cops, who later said he was driving erratically. They pulled him out of the car because they thought he had a gun, then threw him to the ground and choked him to death. It was ruled accidental, though one police officer involved in the incident, was later brought to trial for abusing his girlfriend.

There is no way anyone can convince me that cops are not some of the most racist people in our society. And these are the people we expect to protect us, people we are supposed to trust.

Being a white woman, I never had to confront this issue. But now that I am married to a black man, I am a lot more aware of this problem. I really feel for anyone who has had to live through police harrassment.

Sorry to have gone off on a tangent, but this topic really sets me off.

28. susanv
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 11:15 AM/EST

Although I can understand where you're coming from, I have to take exception with your comment that cops are "some of the most racist people in our society."

That's a really broad brush you're painting with... I have a ton of family and friends in law enforcement at the federal, state and local level and none of them are racist. And I know you're not trying to say that *all* cops are racist, but even so...

Sure there are racist cops out there, most definitely. There are also racist dentists, accountants, gas station attendants, corporate executives, factory workers, etc. I don't think that cops are "more" racist than anyone else. They just have the power to express it in a way that's different from most others.

For example, my husband and I are driving, a racist cop sees us, doesn't like the black/white thing and pulls us over and harasses us. Does that make him more racist than say, three other people that saw us that day and thought "n***** lover" or something of the sort? Nope, he's just the only one with a badge, a squad car, mars lights, and the power to pull us over.

I've gotten crappy service and attitude from waitresses when I'm with my husband that I know I wouldn't have gotten were I by myself. Does that mean that waitresses are some of the most racist people in society? Nope, some waitresses are racist, some aren't.

In the same way, I don't think it's fair to say "cops" are racist. I think it's like any other group in society, there are some that are, and some that aren't. They are not robots, they all come to the job with their own personal biases and prejudices, just like anyone else. But the cops that are racist have more power to express it than your average citizen. And those that do are abusing that power.

29. Have to agree with Melissa here...
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 12:02 PM/EST

I agree that all cops are not racist. And I think it's a very good point Melissa has made about police having more power to express their racist tendencies than your average Joe (or Judy). Of course, this does nothing to help the fact that my husband has been detained by the police at least once a year since I have known him. The reason he hasn't been arrested and held I think is because this is a man who could possibly talk himself out of ANY situation. I have always felt he'd make a wonderful diplomat. But that's off the point. The last incedent, last fourth of July, really made me think about his ability to 'talk.' The fact is, he is eloquent and fairly well educated. What about the black men who aren't? What about your average good citizen, who isn't a criminal, but does not have my husband's talent for 'code switching' (a term that I first heard used on this site)? I'm not interested in talking about how all cops are racist, though I do appreciate Lauren's comments--and btw, WELCOME LAUREN!! So glad you made it to our group!!!!--I'm more interested in talking about what we all go through, or see our mates go through at the hands of those who are. You're right Susan, this should be another topic.

"they're not going willingly into this parallel universe, as we are."--great comment Lauren.

30. "all cops are racist"
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 2:48 PM/EST
ethie'sgirl

I agree that it isn't fair to categorize all cops based on the behavior of some. It's hard *not* to, sometimes, however. When I lived upstate -- where there were about ten black people total in my neck of the woods, I never really thought about cops. They were a completely benevolent presence in my life. One officer was even a substitute history teacher in my high school and seemed much more teddy bear-ish than menacing, to be sure. When my family moved to Connecticut, my feelings about police officers changed almost completely. I was often stopped on the street and asked to show ID or to explain what I was doing there. I took a BIG chance every time this happened by not complying, but simply turning my back and continuing to walk. I was followed home by patrol cars so many times, I felt like I had a regular security escort! When I moved to New York City, I found many more police officers who treated me badly. I am a big woman -- nearly 6 feet tall and no skinny-minnie -- and people often try to tell me that that is what cops (and others) react to. But I don't hear about big white women having cop trouble. All of this is just a long-winded way of agreeing with Bethanie and Melissa: yes, some cops are racist, but I have to believe that not all cops are. I say "have to" because that's the way I feel. If I really believe all cops are racists, what does that do to my sense of security, to my ability to go about my life calmly?

31. Ethie's girl...
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - 5:59 PM/EST

I don't know how many times I've told my husband the very same thing as what you just said. As a white woman, I have NEVER been stopped by police. The only time I was stopped, I was traveling through Mississippi with my husband. The police made some excuse about our CA plates being expired, even though they weren't, because he wanted to get a closer look at the couple in the car. That was the one and only time, and I think it speaks volumes about what you just said. I can't even comprehend what that would do to my sense of security if it was something I had to face on a daily basis.

B

32. Suprised at my family
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 10:39 AM/EST

Ok, I'm not even sure I'll be able to fit this here, but I'll try! Can you believe I am just finding out how racist my family is? After years of interracial dating on my part, and having an almost 3 year old biracial daughter, I'm just finding this out now!

My mother wants me to find a "Good white man" because "Black men are lazy, and will never get ahead in this society" She just said this the other night and I was shocked!!!! I realized how alone my daughter and I really are here. I don't mean me and my daughter against the world, but it sure made me feel alienated.

Also, I have a sister who lives near me with 2 kids (Boy 3, girl-almsot 2) and she is married to an italian man, they live in an upper class neighborhood, and are oblivious to anything out side of their little world. I say this with much love, mind you...when asked where I would want my daughter to go, if anything ever happened to me, I spoke of another sister up north, who, I feel would be better equipped to deal with prejudice issues...when my sister who lives here found out, she freaked and told me I was going to be my daughter's biggest downfall because I am making race an issue! That's not the case at all....I'm just more versed as to how society will be. No different than when Bill and Karen decided to move to NY, thinking it would be better for the kids. I never make it an issue in front of my daughter, but think of it, and try to make decisions that will be in her best interest. I mean, let's face it, she's not the norm.....but I'll never make her paranoid about it! Does anyone know where I'm coming from???

ALso, I'm actually thinking about moving up to NY where my sister lives, before my daughter is school age...instead of raising her in the South..........comments???

33. preciouswf....
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 12:14 PM/EST

Wow, what an awful thing to hear from your mother. I certainly agree that you can't have your daughter growing up with those kind's of images floating around in her head, due to these kinds of offhanded comments that your family has made. How will that make her feel about herself? I'm not sure where you come from in Florida, and I have already made too many generalizations about the South because of my own experience. But for the exact same reason I wouldn't raise my own daughter around certain elements of my own family (we live in Seattle, they in Mississippi), I think that moving to a place where people will be more accepting of you and your daughter is a good idea. It is difficult to go it alone as you are doing. I think if you have support from your sister, she may be a big source of help to you. I know I will be praying for you, because this can be a very difficult situation to go through with your family. I never found out how prejudice my mother was until the first time I dated someone not of my race. All of the sudden, the woman who had been telling me all my life that God made us all and we are all the same, was suddenly saying all sorts of dispicable things. This doesn't mean I don't still love her--and we have long ago gotten past all of this, and she has learned a lot--but I would never stand by her saying anything like this to my daughter or I. I have found that the best way is to immediately correct the person who is making the statement. Did you talk to your mother about how such comments coming from her would affect your child who after all, comes from a black man?

cotd

34. cotd..
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 12:15 PM/EST

I agree that moving might be best. But I would also advise you to really have an open discussion with your mother about these feelings she is having--if you haven't already done so. If you mother is to be a part of your daughter's life she needs to know what kind of an impact her statements can have. It is totally possible she doesn't connect your daughter with the statements she's made. And she should be told in no uncertain terms how her granddaughter will be impacted by her negative feelings and statements about black people (black men especially). hope this helps. Good luck with what looks to be a really difficult situation.

B

35. preciousswf -- where you'll live
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - /EST
ethie'sgirl

Bill and Karen's decision about where to raise their family was such an important one. Don't feel like you're "making a big deal out of nothing" for taking your daughter's happiness and comfort into account. I often wonder about this issue in terms of my brother and his wife. They bought an apartment in a suburb of New York City that is notorious for its prejudice and de facto segregation (New York State actually took the city to court over this issue a few years ago). I couldn't figure out why an interracial couple would want to move to this place ... and I *really* couldn't understand why they'd want to raise a family there. They've been living there for almost six years now and so far things have been ok. I just think that, in their position, I'd have chosen a more tolerant area, some place with less potential for trouble.

36. Thank You!
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 7:53 PM/EST

I think, more than anything, I just wanted to hear (or read as the case may be) some support! I have to be so careful because, thanks to my family, I always have a little voice in my head that tells me I'm overreacting....I never realized how difficult this would be...I just loved her father and wanted to have a baby...you never think about the racial issues until they begin to smack you in the face. I have never felt so alienated from my family before......but, with God, and people like you guys, how can I go wrong?!

37. P.S.
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 7:59 PM/EST

Also, maybe we can keep in touch after this is done...my email address is: Horff@earthlink.net

38. precious
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - /EST
ethie'sgirl

check out the thread about keeping this conversation going after 10/5. Someone -- is it Melissa? -- has set up another place for us to post our messages. Don't ask me how we get there ... I'm having faith that all will be explained in good time!