Topic #11. why are black men ,the men most likely to date outside?
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1. why are black men ,the men most likely to date outside?
Tue, Sep 14, 1999 - 8:05 PM/EST

Black men have some very peculiar patterns and statics in regards to their interraccial dating. The afr the men most likly to leave women of their own race. Black men and white women in America often say the cause is that black women are masculine, domineering, greedy....all sort of slurs that could never be directed at black men to justify anything. But I have discovered that black males AROUND THE WORLD show a light skin preference. And while you can say black american women are so and so's- how can you explain the situations of black women in England, Brazil, Africa and more. Do't say the white male influence. If that's so then shouldn't black men FIGHT IT!!?

2. Hmmm...
Tue, Sep 14, 1999 - 9:40 PM/EST
laffzalot

My husband is black & I am white. I really can't answer your question (why are black men the men most likely to date outside). I just wanted to say in my own words that I wish you could see beyond the color of a person's skin like I/we did. My family background is Jewish. I wasn't raised Jewish though. My husband dated women of all races before he met me (black, white, asian, spanish, etc.). I consider myself lucky because I married a wonderful man. I wasn't looking for a black man, I was looking for the man of my dreams (regardless of what his skin color was). I had never dated a black man before. His whole family is black & my whole family is Jewish...we broke the mold so to speak. I wasn't trying to "steal" someone of another race so black women would have to suffer...I was looking for my soul mate...who happened to be black. Maybe some black men in the forum can enlighten us with regard to your question? My intention is not to upset you or anyone else here...just to state my feelings.

3. Maybe we just started first...
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - /EST
dman

More and more, at least out here, I'm seeing biracial couples where the woman is Black. My program manager is married to a Filipino. My neighborhood is an enclave for biracial couples it seems. Personally, I was never told to date only Black women when I was coming up. Everything was based on communication. There were women that I wouldn't take to the corner store no matter what color they were. Sometimes it was the woman who saw something in me that prompted her to make the initial contact. I simply kept an open mind about the situation.

4. it'd be interesting to know
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 8:56 AM/EST

My sister-in-law shows resentment of me sometimes,

because I am white, and I'm trying to learn to understand the pain and resentment black women feel when they are faced with a black man with a white woman. I certainly don't believe that black women are responsible!! I think that when the marriage works, it's some kind of miracle, no matter what the racial makeup is, and that love should always be celebrated.

I was once told that we white women have lower standards and expectations for black man than their sisters. I think that's hogwash. But I do think that people who make the choice to enter an interracial marriage are willing to work very hard to make their marriage work. And that the very difficulties that they face from the world outside can bind them tighter and tighter to each other.

I do notice that my husband and I are kinder and more respectful to each other than most couples I meet.

5. About one black man
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 12:34 PM/EST
joyw

I won't presume to speak for my husband as to why he chose to marry a white woman. What I do know is that he tried to date a fair number of black women before he started dating me. He was rejected by all of the black women whom he approached. I don't know on what basis they rejected him (I have my suspicions, none of which are limited to black women by any means--he's not a stud/jock, he's not from a wealthy family, he's the kind of guy that women "just want to be friends with"). But it's their loss (on an individual basis--not a sweeping statement about taking a black man from the community--heaven knows that I've been accused of that often enough). He's a fabulous guy with a great sense of humor, and yes, a really good friend too. The black women he knew just didn't take time to get to know him.

6. Not Me
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 4:38 PM/EST

It is frustrating, as a black woman, to have your statements about intraracism by black men answered with a simply "I don't know". "It's not me" or MY black male companion that acts that way". I'd like to point out that there is (and has always been) vicious color and race discrimination by black men, yet every black male or white female in a relationship with black men- claims it's not them. Someone has to be lying or deluding themselves. As for wishing that I could see past skin color. I must admit that that statement irritates me. Why is a black woman called racist for pointing out disciminination against US. If I said " gee I think black men can't get cabs because they are black", no white woman in an interracial relationship would accuse me of not being able to see past the color of the black man or the cab driver? Most interracial couples with black men/white women are only sympathetic when OTHERS are accussed of discrimination. To question them only invokes the "you're racist", "I'M happy- so what's the problem. Continued next listing..

7. Continued... I'm happy..
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 5:09 PM/EST

Black men and white women conveniently forget that it was black women who accepted the many, many non-black women, black men brought into the Black community. Many of these women, mostly the white ones relied on this because they often lost their "white life" when they decided to date or marry a black man. Black women didn't have to welcome white women. White women weren't opening up the white community to US and for many complex reasons, black women were largely responsible for the maintanance, income,and basic survival of the very families,communities,and black religious and cultural institutions that black men were bringing white women into. To watch black men, who claimed they had little power to open the doors to the white world for black women-so frequently open the doors to the black world for white women (even if they weren't always paying their half of the "rent")was painful. But, for a long time, black women let white women in. It really hurts me that black men and white women could suggest that black women are bigoted. As if we just discovered that white, latin,and asian women are -SURPRISE- not black!! If black women wanted to attack solely on the bases of race,we could have decades ago. It angers me to see black men and white women spew "we are the world" sentiments when both groups have been discriminating against or ignoring black women and our concerns forever- while WE are doing things that will benefit them. I won't stop bringing up the question of intraracism by black men just because it bothers an interracial couple. Anymore than that same interracial couple would stop bringing up the issue of police harrassment of black men- because it makes good cops or their families upset. If there's a problem (in any way) it MUST BE ADDRESSED! NO FORMS OF DISCRIMINATION CAN GO ON AND NOT CONTAMINATE EVERYBODY- INCLUDING INTERRACIAL COUPLES!

8. Another point
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 5:18 PM/EST

Do you realize what a huge statement "He was rejected by ALL the black women he met"- is? Do you realize how unlikely that is. Drunks, morbidly obese people,those who are wheel chair bound, even serial killers- can find someone who is "into" them but a black man can't( during a black male shortage. By the way , I am not comparing overweight people or the handicap to drunks (not to be confused with recovering alcoholics) of serial killers. My point is, ost of the black men I've met who said that, liked to "go after" a certain TYPE of black women. Usually women who were NOT his equivalent. Chubby,nerdish, dark black men don't tend to hit on chubby, nerdish dark black women. They know what they like. They forget so do black women.

9. Maybe we should rewind time.
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 7:59 PM/EST
dip

For years and years, blacks have discriminated against each other based on traits that are directly related to European influence. Wavy,shiny,straight hair is considered " good hair ". I would challenge anyone to dispute the fact that for the majority of the time that Africans have been in America, light skin has been preffered over dark skin. There was a brief period in the early 90's when Wesley Snipes and Bmrian McKnight made dark skin popular. I would defeinitely not suggest that this is true in any case where two people have gotten married. Hopefully they love each other for their personalities,etc..., but the initial attraction might have roots in this phenomenon. If we had appreciated all people within the black community equally, you may have never asked this question. My wife and are currently trying to change this line of thinking. Our children have what has ben reffered to as " good hair " and " a beautiful skin tone ". Anytime that anyone uses terms like these to describe their attributes, I correct them and tell them that our children's attributes are different, no better or worse than anyone elses. Anytime we tell our children that they are pretty or beautiful, we make sure to explain that heir beauty comes from within, not how they look or the clothes they are wearing. I have never experienced another "race" of people discriminate against themselves by skin tone. We need to do whatever we can to eliminate this very common practice.

10. What direction should we look?
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 11:54 PM/EST
joyw

I'm sorry if my post offended or frustrated you. I was trying to answer the question that you posted at the top about why black men choose to marry outside their "race". I tried to point out that the reasons that the black women refused my husbands interests were probably based on reasons other than race.

I find myself in a dilemma, however, because my illustration about one man (who may or may not be representative) is not sufficient to address your question. I don't want to exchange dissections of each other's arguments (pointless and antagonizing), but I would like to keep this discussion going productively because I think it is a really critical issue to grapple with. If you're game, can we come up with a direction that we can all add to?

I do feel like I need to respond to yor statements in item #8--I did not say that my husband had been refused by all the black women he "met"--only those he approached. Admittedly, this was a selective process, but in general, the women (those that I know of) had similar interests and physical qualities (e.g., were musicians of a medium to dark brown complexion and of less than idealized proportions--in my husband's case tall and skinny (exceptionally) but that's irrelevant).

11. A thought.
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 10:49 AM/EST

How about this:

Traditionally there has been sort of a race/gender hierarchy in our society with white men at the top because have both of the "good traits"; that is, they are male and white. Black women would be at the bottom of such a hierarch, being neither male nor white. Black men and white women have always been in the middle of this. Now I'm not saying that in 1930 a black bowery bum had much in common with a white diplomat's wife, but think about this for a moment. For white women, the struggle against sexism coupled with the acceptance for being white is similar to a black man's struggle against racism coupled with his acceptance for being a man. This is not true in all cases but think a little harder. A white female professional works hard to reach for the goals she has set for herself only to bump up againt the glass ceiling of her sex. Her white male bosses say she is a hard worker but are not sure is a woman is the 'right fit' for the next level of management. . A black male professional works hard to reach for the goals he has set for himself only to bump up againt the glass ceiling of his race. His white male bosses say he is a hard worker but are not sure is a black man is the 'right fit' for the next level of management.

Don't get me wrong, I know that these same things happen to black women also, because they face both racism and sexism. But somehow it seem like black men and white women share a similar status that makes it easier for them to get together. I suspect you will disagree with me on this but it's just a thought

12. Makes some sense to me
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 10:16 PM/EST
joyw

I think your generalizations are fairly accurate, although I would hesitate to equate sexism and racism--they have much in common but some significant differences too. Most white women "sleep with the enemy" (to rip off a feminist catch phrase) and many benefit directly from the priveleges assigned to white men (husbands who get the better jobs, etc and can keep them in the style to which they are accustomed). I think that your "theory" may account for increased exposure of white women and black men, who both get stuck several rungs below white men on the ladder of success. I don't know if I'm comfortable with the suggestion that they therefore have more in common with each other or necessarily have more sympathy/empathy for each other.

This is a tangential comment, but I think that women on the whole tear down each other as much if not more so than anyone else tear us down. The backbiting and sabotaging of each other is terribly destructive. It's not just between the races, it's women who work vs. women who stay home with kids, it's women executives vs. women office workers, it's women who fight for women's rights vs. women who call them feminazis. I'm not trying to write this off as "Can't we just love each other", and we can and should make different lifestyle and political choices, but as long as any of us is trodden upon, we are all dragged lower. I suspect this could also be said of the black community (both the tearing down and the need for more building up), but I have no personal experience, so it's pure speculation.

Having talked myself into this corner, I wonder if this then ties in with the question posed in Topic 15 (Are biracial relationships really impacting society?)?

13. Why? I haven't a clue
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 1:46 AM/EST
sadsack

...Other than a lesser degree of noticing the preferences put on lighter skin. That makes me sad and angry, but not in the same room with how sad and angry this makes people on the short end of it. I know that, and that's one reason I'm not going to try some brilliant or even merely somewhat perceptive contribution here.

Rather, I want to thank all the people for talking and/or ranting but at least bringing up one of the most substantial issues being discussed in this group. I hope you all accomplish some good. I will be reading every word (Though with ADD, I can't promise to remember.) Take care.

14. I disaggree?...
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 5:12 PM/EST

First off, Hibou, I do NOT disaggree with you! I believe and have stated a similar theory to friends. I have even written a school paper in the past titled "Black Men and White Women: Flip sides of the same coin." The title sucked, but I felt the point was valid. White women and black men DO hold similar positions of privilege and "pain" in America. Where we may differ is that I have come to believe that both their heavily rewarded "victim status" and their gender/racial privileges (and even feelings of importance that come from being white or male) have made them more discriminatory than they ever imagined- especially toward black women. Also, being black or female has made it harder to "call" black men and white women on that discrimination. It is dangerous to let ANYONE put bias into society. It is even more dangerous when the people doing it have lost the capacity to even see their own biases-or admit that these biases are serious problems. As serious as anything white males created. Out of all the responses to my listings, I finally am getting some thought from people instead of the same old statements. I didn't write my comments to provoke- ONLY! I wanted debate -real debate and thought. It's a shame that so often the person who starts a serious debate is the one who gets vilified right out of it.(Not to play the whiney victim here) Dip and JoyW- I'm really pleased to read your THOUGHTFUL comments and there is no need to be overly sensitive to my feelings -IF I AM WRONG! But if I have a point just be fair and objective (no matter what the race of your partner). Thank you for starting to do that! This is too important an issue,to not be seriously debated and even argued CONTRUCTIVELY.

15. Alfie.
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 9:26 PM/EST

You come across as angry and it is hard to see past that, but I think that I might be beginning to understand your point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you have been saying is that by dating outside their race, black men are discriminating against black women. There is probably more truth to that than most of us would like to admit. While your theory may sometimes explain why people get together, human relationships are a huge powerful dynamic that cannot be explained away so easily. A 50 yr old man may marry a 21 year old woman because she does something for his ego, but the ego boost won't last 20 years. When the shine has worn off they had better hope that a real relationship has grown in its place. I have been married for 9 years and my wife and I have been together for a total of 14 years. I can't be sure of all the reasons why I was attracted to her. I think we were just right for each other, but maybe some societal racism was in my heart and I preffered her for some of the wrong reasons. My point is that none of that matters now, because over time she and my kids have become my world, and whatever role race may or may not have played in the beginning is irrelevant.

I hear what you are saying Alfie. You may be right, and you've certainly made me think. But you can never make me regret.

16. A few things on all of the above...
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 11:28 PM/EST
dman

To Hibou and Alfie: Social theorists have seen the parallel between Black men and white women for decades. It is there with a great deal of validity. Possibly some couples have gotten together because of it but I doubt it was a conscious act and I'm not trying to make that the implication of your statements.

To Joyw: Possible poor choice of words. Any Black person will be quick to point out that sleeping with the enemy does not make you an equal.

17. I'll say it again
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 12:51 PM/EST

Please don't simplify my statements to appease YOURSELF and justify your relationship. I never said BLACK MEN DATING OUTSIDE IS DISCRIMINATION AGAINST BLACK WOMEN. YOU ARE PUTTING UP THAT MENTAL ROADBLOCK AGAIN HIBOU.I didn't say - or believe- that anymore than I believe that if a white company hires a white employee,it's discrimination against blacks . But, if a good portion of white owned companies show a PATTERN of only hiring whites for managment, light-skin blacks for mid-level jobs, and dark blacks NOT AT ALL- then that is a problem. I am suggesting that black men are doing a similar thing. Right down to the light-skin black preference when white is not used.Also people who don't love each other or love FOR THE WRONG REASONS- can and DO stay together for years and decades! Also, black men who date or marry for the wrong reasons are still intraracists and still involved in interracial dating for ten twenty years - even if it is to many different white, asian, hispanic, or other light-skinned women. Though I understand your basic point about YOUR relationship.

18. Clarification
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 2:20 PM/EST
joyw

Sorry if I was obscure--"Sleeping with the enemy" is the title of a feminist essay or book (I don't remember which--read it about 10 years ago). The essence is not that white women being with white men makes them equal (hardly!!!!) but that it gives white women mixed motives to both support and fight against sexism.

I did not mean to imply that it referred to white women with black men--on the contrary, the "enemy" in the title of the essay is white men. I was trying to illustrate a key difference that I see between sexism and racism. Men and women need each other (in most cases), but racism is built on the notion that one race doesn't need the other.

19. I AGREE WITH "DIP"
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 12:11 PM/EST

....ELIMINATE THIS VERY COMMON PRACTICE OF DISCRIMINATING AGAINST ONE ANOTHER,BY RACE. THERE IS ONLY (1) ONE RACE, THE HUMAN RACE. WE MAKE UP A RAINBOW (OF GOD) NOT A SEPARATE RACE. I"LL TALK MORE LATER. I AM VERY MOVED BY ALL,(ALFIE,DMAN,JAYJAY,JOYW,HIBOU,LAFFZALOT AND SADSACK)

20. I'm back Alfie
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - /EST

First let me say that I have really enjoyed all of this discussion with all you fine people out there and I have especially enjoyed debating with you Alfie.

Now I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt when you say your not angry but when you make a statement like: "Please don't simplify my statements to appease YOURSELF and justify your relationship." you sound disingenuous. That is an inflamitory statement and I don't need to 'justify' my relationship to anyone.

The truth is that you ARE saying that black men, though maybe not consiously, are discriminating against dark skinned women. I would be hard pressed to dissagree with that statement. It's probably true to some degree, although every individual has a story that must be judged on its own merits.

One last point. I think that people can meet for the wrong reasons. I think that they can date and marry for the wrong reasons. But I don't think you can love someone for the wrong reasons. Not real love. There is no wrong reason to love someone. There is too little love in this world and if you have it to give, then give it.

21. Angry Alfie
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 1:00 PM/EST

One of the most frustrating things about debates (even thoughtful ones) is when someone repeatedly accuses you of being something that you are not. I was not angry,but I find myself BECOMING angry everytime someone calls me angry! The suspicious part of me sometimes thinks that when people accuse you of something you can only deny,they are doing so in order to MAKE you angry. Whether consciously- or not, the accuser knows anger clouds judgement and thus,your argument. I have been in debates where the irritating use of the same statement or accusation,was enough to reduce a thoughtful person into someone too upset to make their "good points". Hibou, you came very close to provoking a hostile response from me. But that response was to YOU- not to the issue. In my previous comments, I never called people names.And never suggested that OTHERS in this chat group (who date interracially)had to justify THEIR relationships.Why you, Hibou? You finally irritated me enough to make me slip up in my usually careful use of language. If you feel slightly vendicated in your unfair assessment of me as " the angry black woman"(who made some good points)- so be it. Just keep thinking about what I have said and not what you are waiting for me to "slip-up" and say.Also, I beleive that black men are well aware of their racial biases toward women who are BLACK and men who are NOT. A few may be unconscious intraracists, but the issue of racism and colorism has been in the spotlight too long (and black men have been too involved in complaining about discrimination against themselves) to not know what they are doing to black women. It has been the assertion of the black men in interracial relationships, that any intraracism has been unconscious and brought on by white influences. If that is so ,then why aren't black women repulsed by black men? We should be, considering how aggressive the negative propaganda against THEM has been.I'll leave it at that.This dialog is making me weary.

22. Sorry Alfie.
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 4:14 PM/EST

First let's restate the obvious. I don't know you and you don't know me. However much it seems like we are having a conversation, we really are not. None of us has anything at stake here so please believe me when I say that there is nothing personal going on here. I may disagree with a point you make or misinterpret your tone as anger, but I don't have anything against you. How can I? I don't even know you!

The last few posts I have sent in this thread were mostly about me trying to come to terms with some of what I think are very good points that you have raised. But instead of really listening to me and clarifying yourself, you lash out and lecture me. Reread this thread and see if I'm not telling the truth.

If you are going to discuss these issues with people the you owe it to yourself and to them to come with an open mind and be willing to listen and not just lecture. I'm sorry that there was no way for me to send this to you directly and not post it for everyone to see.

If we are still at odds with each other after this, I promise that I will not make anymore postings directed at you.

Le Hibou

23. alfie
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 6:08 PM/EST

I have read my postings Hibou and yours. I didn't lash out at YOU unil you continued to accuse me of anger. I have yet to understand why my mood would matter ,anyway, it is the argument that counts. you stated that I was closed minded and did't hear other people. But it has only been you I have had a problem with. You stated that you CAN"T resent me because you don't know me, but you have decided early on that I am angry and resent YOU (without knowing you). I am no less inteeligent than you Hibou and I am know more prone to judging others I don't know than you. I didn't lash out at you only your insulting persistance in calling me angry. As for lecturing you, did you ever consider that fact that each time you accued me of anger you claimed that that anger made my points UNCLEAR. Any lengthy arguments I made from that point on, were precisly because you claimed not to understand me. I heard you and others. If I hadn't I couldn't have responded. You seem to believe that if someone disaggrees with you, it means they didn't hear you or are closed minded. I said that I understood your point about your relationship, but that wasn't enough. As for having nothing to loose. that's not true.You are in an interracial relationship and anyone questioning it with any success-is chipping away at your idealistic view of yourselves. this is not the first time a black man in an interrace relationship hit full capacity on my points about intraracism and decided that I was not giving him enough "rights" in the argument. You should read the postings in other dialog groups and you will understand just how clear and non-inflamatory I have been. I don't always think I'm right, Hibou. But I've heard evrything you have said many times before and found that the old " maybe there is SOME discrimination", and the "end the end its' about love" - to only be a distraction from the real issue of how serious or wide spread intraracism is. Read the other dialog groups. Especially #3.

24. Another
Mon, Sep 20, 1999 - 6:51 PM/EST

Now that I'm calmer,I'll watch my spelling, and add this. I aggreed with you on an occasion, Hibou. I was also open to other people's comments (Dip, Joyw,..) and encouraged them not to worry about my feelings too much -if I am wrong. I mentioned that I had read THEIR comments and thought them to be smart and thoughtful. You missed that too,Hibou. Clearly, you have decided my closed mindedness on the bases of my responses to you. I listened to everyone and only responded ,strongly, when I noted one of "the usual" comments on mixed relationships coming up. I didn't do this to lecture, but to keep the dialog moving beyond- "Let's just love one another"- to-"Are we really doing that?If not-why?" You wanted me to stop and acknowledge you for agreeing that SOME intraracism from black men exists.Maybe if we were face to face in a personal chat- not an open debate-I would have stopped to do those sort of emotional "hugs" and plesantries. But,black male color fixation is already well known-even by whites!!One of the issues is HOW MUCH OF IT EXISTS and HOW MUCH ARE BM/WF relationships influenced by it? That can't be truly addressed with a "maybe a little, but love will prevail". That may be true for your relationship, but this dialog is not a personal one. It is a dialog about what is possibly a national problem (and even international- race/color fixation). Personal situations can and DO add to an argument, but they can not BE your argument. That is what I called YOU on. I had no intention on continuing to address you, Hibou, until you repeatedly called my opinions angry and clouded. Reread my postings,again- LATER, MUCH LATER!!! I have read yours and others more than you could imagine. I have even read and considered the opinions of folks in other dialog groups. Don't apologize again, Hibou. You'll just call me angry and closed-minded again-in a different way. I will no longer address you directly. It is not The ALFIE/HIBOU dialog group and I am at least sensitive to that.