Topic #10. Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender mixed race relationships
(Showing 1-84 of 84)
1. Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender mixed race relationships
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 11:12 AM/EST
gwendolyn
What if any are the dynamics of a mixed race gay relationship and how does the geographical (urban vs small town) location effect those dynamics.
2. Interesting subject...
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 11:59 AM/EST
My BIL is both gay and black. I think he has experienced a tremendous amount of pressure on all sides. He has told me that in the African American community there is a huge anti-gay stigma. This has made dating and finding relationships very difficult for him. He prefers to date within his own race, but has also dated latino men. I think that within the gay community there is more acceptance over all of interracial relationships--does this make sense? My close gay friends have never been big discriminators. But perhaps you would know more about this than me--actually, of course you would. The pressure here was mostly from his mother--or the brunt of it anyway. She's from the south and very religious..and just thinks Satan's got hold of him. Anyway, He's now pursuing his Masters degree in Indiana, and the pressure there is of course much worse. I think there he has a difficult time just being himself, and has chosen from whatever African American Gay men there are just to keep from adding to his own alienation.
This is probably not quite in line with the question your asking, but I thought I would add it anyway.
3. Adding to bethanie
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 3:27 PM/EST
That is interesting. I have made more gay/lesbian friends while being in that interracial relationship than I had ever in my life up to that point. Generally speaking, and correct me if I am wrong Gwendolyn, I think they feel they can relate to the vicious discrimination they face daily.
I know most of my black male pals strongly disagree with the open-minded way I feel about my gay/lesbian, but these are probably the same pals that made stupid comments about me dating my Finnish girlfriend.
As for my white pals, I think they are more open-minded, or at least the friends I hang out with. I wonder why?
4. bethanie
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 3:35 PM/EST
gwendolyn
A relationship between two people of the same sex from my perspective can be challenging, however I think the greater challenge is when individuals are from different ethnic backgrounds. A couple may/can fall in love, but I think external racism coming from family member, friends and others may cause them to step on each other's ethnic toes. Racism is a powerful force to have combat. Most of the lethal racism and homophobia that I've faced has been very subtle. So subtle that I really had to think twice about what was happening to me. Was it for real or I am I being too sensitive. The Black/African American community is very Homophobia, it really bothers me that for a "people" who have experience so much discrimination, why is this (my community) so homophobia. I wish I could say it was solely the influence of the church, a lot of it comes from the church, but I think a lot of the homophobia comes from our white ancestors. My two cents for today.
5. Gwendolyn...
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 4:24 PM/EST
I think this happens both in same sex and in heterosexual relationships...the subtle but ever present racism of family members and how that impacts your relationship..However, you have the added bonus of also having to 'justify' both the relationships homosexualtiy and it's racial diversity--what a challenge. And though Justify isn't the right word I know, because you don't necessarily have to justify it to yourself, I think as couples we do want the acceptance of our families. One of the reasons my BIL has such a difficult time dealing with just the fact of his sexuality is that he sometimes feels he needs to justify it to himself. Because of his cultural/racial/religious upbringing he has questions as to weather or not he is 'committing a sin.' And the reasons he sometimes feels so much pressure, is that when his mother says some of the things she does about him and his life, somewhere inside himself, he believes her. I hope in time he will grow out of this thinking, and learn to truely enjoy his life.
What my husband and i have learned through trial and error, is to shut out the outside world. In much the same way the Simms have managed to do, we work very hard at making our home a for lack of a better word 'race free zone.' this doesn't mean we don't appreciate each other's differences, just that in our house, when we're together, race is not an issue. I've always been curious what people on the outside think is so unique about our relationship. Our family life is much like anyone else's. And we learn also that sometimes you just have to shut your family off. When they get to be too much to take, we just have to stop listening, take stock of ourselves, and spend sometime talking about things that were said and done. This is what I learned through my time in the Army to call and AAR--After Action Review. My husband and I both believe that our ability to communicate so openly with each other is one of the saving graces of our marriage.
Bethanie
6. For Bethanie
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 5:36 PM/EST
gwendolyn
Parents have tremendous amount of power over their children, even adult children. In my opinion, parents who love their children on condition of they're being a certain way or living a certain life style is cruel. As a parent I love my daughter no matter what. Our roles are reversed, she as the adult child has to accept/love me the gay parent. She has said, "just as long as I am happy, she is happy for me." I have never been happier with my life, I have someone in my life who I like, care for and who will always be my friend, even if we are not lovers. She is white and I am Black and we are working very hard on making this new relationship work for both of us. But you are right communication is very important to making all relationships work.
Gwendolyn
7. To Gwendolyn
Wed, Sep 15, 1999 - 11:17 PM/EST
First of all, thanks for bringing up a very valid topic. I can tell you why homosexuals are more understanding about interracial relationships......have you ever seen a gay biggot? It just doesen't happen. They can relate with us, as we with them, I think. I have an older sister who is gay, with an 11 year old daughter, and lives with her 'wife' in NY. I have never seen her so happy, and am seriously considering moving out of the south, and living closer to her for a variety of reasons...one being the open mindedness of all of her neighbors who don't seem to mind at all!
I don't think the white or black race corners the market on homophobia...you will still have ignorance and fear, no matter what a certain race has been thru. People who are homophobic are intimidated in some way...even fearful of the lifestyle. It's sad. I just love to see love!
8. Interesting Question, Preciousswf
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 9:01 AM/EST
You comment about "Have you ever seen a gay bigot?" is well taken. Perhaps this is because gays know firsthand of bigotry just by the very fact of being gay.
Also, it seems to me that relationships between same sexes are much more acceptable for females than males, no matter what the race or ethnic background. I really think that people are less critical of two women living together and even raising children than they are of two males doing the same. Even two women holding hands or embracing in public gets less attention then two males doing the same things. In some cultures, men do embrace in family situations, etc. but I do not think they do it as freely, for example, in the US regardless of their sexual preferences. It's much more a "guy" thing to slap another man on the back or shake his hand than hug him.
Is it possible this is a gender issue also?
9. For Dororthy and Preciousswf
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 12:40 PM/EST
gwendolyn
You are right relationships between same sex partners are more acceptable for women than men, why because, women are seen or have been placed in the category of caregivers, so its alright or acceptable for women to take care of the children, US society looks the other way because that's the woman's role. However, (I am on my soapbox), men are or can be caregivers and make loving and wonderful parents, but we have in the US society this thing about men, two men taking care of their children, its not manly. I know some very good men who are in same sex relationships, who are raising their foster, adopted or natural children and are doing a great job, despite our society labeling them as deviant or in an unnatural act. You may be right about the gender gap, but I think it has to do with our US society uptight, puritan, ass backward attitude toward sex and sexuality. If society would keep its nose out of the bedrooms, half of our problems would disappear.
As far as the gay bigot thing goes, I don't agree, and this is a generalization, some gays folks are homophobic and can be racist. As I said in an earlier post, the Black/African American community is very homophobia, and the community that I belong to has internalize a lot of our racism and that internalize stuff is than push on to others-homophobia. Even if we have some disagreements, I am very happy this dialogue is taking place, the more we talk to each other the better we understand each other and that can only be good.
Gwendolyn
10. Gwendolyn...
Thu, Sep 16, 1999 - 9:51 PM/EST
Do you think the intense African American homophobia is based on religious beliefs...this may be a generalization as well...if it is, please let me know, I want to understand this issue better. For years and years, a big part of the African American community I think has been closely tied to the church, or churches. It has been my feeling, in coming to understand the dynamics of my MIL's relationship with her gay son, that if she weren't a 'Christian' she wouldn't have a problem with him...she is otherwise very loving towards him, it's hard to explain..but except for her constant disapproval of, and refusal to accept his lifestyle, these two people are so much alike it is frightening. But I'm wondering if it is like this throughout the black community. That since so much support still comes from church (or it seems to be the case here where I'm living now), it is seen as a kind of affront to the community, since it goes against the 'gospel.'--don't know if I phrased this well, but i'm interested to hear your response.
11. Feel like I'm butting in, but here I go ...
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 1:02 AM/EST
ethie'sgirl
Certainly I can't *really* explain homophobia in the AA community because a) I'm not homophobic, b) even if I *were* I can only speak for myself anyway ... I would imagine, however, that certainly for some people religion *is* a factor. Some people -- not just black people -- really do believe that to be gay is to commit a sin. But I think it's more than that. I have a student who's in her early 70's. She is intensely religious. She is also the mother of a gay, cross-dressing son. She told me that for years she cut herself off from him, couldn't accept or try to deal with who he was. Now, however, they have a good relationship, and she says it's her faith as a Christian that made her realize she was wrong to turn away from him. I also wonder if, for some people, homophobia might be a manifestation of their fear of too much difference. They are already "different" in the eyes of society. Adding homosexuality to that means you get to be an even bigger target at the shooting gallery, or something. As I said before, I can't pressume to speak for any homophobic people, but that's my take on it...
12. Ethie's girl--
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 2:26 AM/EST
Thanks for your point of view here. Would you believe my parents are incredibly homophobic? I lived in San Francisco for two years and my mother said to me later that she was sure I'd bring a woman home to meet her. I don't thin I had realized before then that this was one of her big fears, and part of the reason I asked about the religion issue is that religion is a HUGE!!!!! factor in my family, and this, coupled with and unwillingness to read anything that doesn't have a black leather cover, and isn't imprinted with "The Holy Bible," just makes things worse. My mother and MIL have actually prayed over my MIL's kitchen table that the stray son would be brought back into the fold. That's why I'm asking about religion, not to say that it doesn't effect all people and their perceptions of others.
13. For bethanie
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 3:08 PM/EST
gwendolyn
I think a lot, of the homophobia, which comes from the Black/African American community, comes from our (slave past). All the slaves had, was the bible passed down to them from the slave master. Some could read however, most could not, so we have various interpretations coming out of the white man's bible. Carry that to the 20th century and its still the same thing being preached in the churches, it's a sin to be Gay and it's an even bigger sin if you are in a relationship with someone of the same sex. You know its not a choice for me, I am what I am and that includes love who I want. Now this is my perspective, and I really can't say if it's like this throughout the AA community. I live in a small town on the central coast of California, I hear and see the homophobia in the (less than 1% of the population) Black community. I feel the isolation of being in a very small town), and yes I feel that it is a kind of affront to the Black community that I live in now. However I sometimes attend a Religious Science church in Oakland, CA and they celebrated Pride Day along with the city of Oakland. There is a big difference depending on where you live. I really don't know how much longer I will be living in my present community because of the isolation.
Gwendolyn
14. For ethie'sgirl
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 3:28 PM/EST
gwendolyn
Thanks for reminding me about my generalizations. You are right its (homophobia), is not only a Black/African American problem but a societal problem. Main stream society sees the Gay world and its population as a threat to the "American Ideal," or a threat to heterosexual America. I have never understood why or how a Gay person could threaten a straight person's sexuality. Our country is obsessed with sexuality, keeping it under wraps, or hiding behind something that is very natural and enjoyable.
My point of view.
Gwendolyn
15. For bethanie
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 3:37 PM/EST
gwendolyn
You mention about what your mother thought you would bring home-a woman. For me it was very hard telling my daughter that her mother who she has known all her life is Gay. I had played all kinds of tapes in my head that she would disown me or never speak to me again. Well none of that happen, all she said was "Mother if you are happy, than I am happy." I think she knew all along and my statement was no surprise.
Gwendolyn
16. For Gwendolyn...
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 5:59 PM/EST
I have played such tapes myself most of my life, and have always been met by my parents being willing to accept, if not totally understand or approve of, all the choices I have made. I can't imagine what life would be like if I didn't have that sense of family to fall back on. You are lucky to have a daughter who accepts who you are, and she is lucky to have a mother like you to help teach her who she is.
Bethanie
17. Gwendolyn...
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 6:01 PM/EST
Where exactly do you live if you don't mind my asking?
B
18. for Bethanie
Fri, Sep 17, 1999 - 6:36 PM/EST
gwendolyn
Thank you for your comments.
I live in Santa Cruz, CA which is on the Monterey Bay, about 40 miles south of San Jose, CA, 75 miles from Oakland and 94 miles from San Francisco. The reason I mention the various miles, because sometimes I feel like I'm back in the "hippie dippie" 60's living in this community and it takes me forever to get out and into the real world.
19. Bible from the Master?
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 11:10 AM/EST
I just want to correct what i think is a mis-information. The Bible did not spread from the masters to the slaves. In fact the masters very much fought it - they passed laws against teaching slaves to read, and if slaves were baptised they had to sign( or x) pledges that this didn't change their slave status.
Rather, as i understand it, slaves identified with someone who was surrounded by the "masters" of his day and found his own freedom. He was homeless and yet kind to the poor and not conquered himself.
And it wasn't a push from the Church, or Churches either. The black Churches developed quite apart from the white.
All that taken into account the Message of Christ is not a white man's message. Any who really understood it struck out against the system of oppression and misery because it was the kind of thing Jesus himself suffered. Alas alas they were so rare. And today Christianity is hopelessly divided congregation from congregation. For example the black church is almost entirely ignorant and distant from the the division the persists in Jerusolem itself among the Christian chruches. One of the holy places owned by one church. But there is an agreement for another church to visit regularly. To manage the transition a Moslem (!) family is trusted with the keys!
BTW i am neither Christian or Moslem but respect each Faith, it's Message, and it's Founders.
20. Gwendolyn...
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 11:21 AM/EST
This just shows you how 'off' our perceptions of places can be. I always felt that Santa Cruz--in seeing it from the outside, was a sort of bastion for feminist/lesbian ideals, and kind of always had a great respect for it--also love the downtown bookstores. The reason I asked was to hear you talking, it really sounded like an ultra-conservative inland California town. Of course, I never spent much time there, so I guess I really don't have a clue as to what it's really like. It makes the subject we're discussing more interesting to know that you're living in an area where there is supposed to be acceptance, and yet you don't feel it. Did you move there thinking that there would be acceptance?
Bethanie
21. Steven--
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 11:25 AM/EST
You have to acknowledge I think that the entire concept of Christianity was passed down from slave-owner to slave. Even if you do make the point that reading was outlawed. And when blacks finally were able to learn to read, what do you think they read?
Let's not quibble over fine points.
Bethanie
22. Steven and Bethanie
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 12:17 PM/EST
ethie'sgirl
Steven, your points are well-taken, but I'm agreeing with Bethanie. While it's true that slave owners fought slave literacy, it's also true that Christianity was used by the masters to justify slavery (to themselves and to their slaves) and that religion sometimes created divisions between slaves -- those who converted and those who refused to convert.
23. Gwendolyn
Sat, Sep 18, 1999 - 11:18 PM/EST
I had an interesting conversation the other night with a young man (white) with whom I work. He is 25, totally blind and now coming to terms with his sexuality and the fact that he prefers men. He told me that he has talked to his mother about this but that he is afraid to talk to his father because of the way his father feels about gays. He told me his father is also a racist and is worried that his son will "get involved with a N....". He laughed and said, "Doesn't he realize that to me there is no color??" What an incredible thought....he knows no color issue, only what he has been told. He doesn't know about physical beauty or lack thereof. He only knows how he feels about the person with whom he is dealing. Amazing.
I realize that this is somewhat off the subject, but wanted to share this experience with you all.
Donna Lou
24. Christianity
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 10:23 AM/EST
I am not talking about how masters used Christianity for themselves. It was said that Christianity came into and spread through the slaves because of the masters.
To the best of my knowledge this is not the case. It was spread sideways through the slave community much much more than it was from masters. Mistaking the two misjudges authentic religious experience.
Please don't read my presentation as a blind defense of Christianity. As it is the largest and most wide spread religion in the world it holds a decent part of the guilt for the way things are and what people did with it to justify their actions both before and since slavery (cf. Bosnia et. al. for example)
But also understand that very little of what we call Christianity has anything to do with it in it's first several hundred years let alone it's first thousand. From the very idea of seeing a man on a cross bleeding at the front of a church to the fact of denominations which cast eachother into hell nothing we call Christianity has any roots in what Jesus said and did. Well perhaps i speak to universally but you get my point.
For a very long time Christianity was a source of healing for entire civilizations and brought peoples together that had fought eachother before. Now it is hopelessly divided from itself. But in between being a source of healing and hopeless division and strife Islam came on the scene (no i am not a Moslem! keep reading!) came and did the same for many many more people. Buddhism, Hinduism... all the great religions early on brought people together and improved the way things were. And just about the time things fell apart another religion came along to pull things together some more. Funny thing is each religion ussually has prophecies about someone coming to take things to a higher level but by then the religion itself has evolved into the thing which opposes the new message.
things that make you go hmmmmm
25. Steven...
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 1:19 PM/EST
Christianity as a source of 'healing' for entire civilizations????????? Think if you will of the Roman Catholic Church..the "Crusades" as they called them, where people were murdered if they did not accept Jesus and the "Church" as their way of life..the Spanish Inquisition? Where people were also murdered. The witch hunts of the seventeen and eighteen hundreds, all done in the name of 'The Lord.' And the conquering of the "New World"--which to the people who lived on it, it wasn't all that new. If you just look at the Mission system in California, and it's appalling history of working the Native American people to death, you perhaps wouldn't say this way of life was a 'healing' experience for all people. What about the Jewish community, which has endured prejudism for years because of their beliefs. "Christians" have justified this prejudism because it was the "Jewish" community that crucified Christ in the Bible.
Having said all this, I was raised in a Strictly Christian environment. I have read and studied the Bible from cover to cover, and I think we could all learn something from the direct teachings of Jesus. But there is so much else in the bible, that seems to have been used not as a loving healer of people and a way toward tolerance and understanding, but as a way to condemn, for one the gay community, which is what we are supposed to be discussing here, and there are also many statements made about slavery (keeping the slave in line with his/her master's wishes) and women, that even now is used as a method of subjugation, and a rational for people to accept prejudice and homophobia. Not to mention it has kept some of the women in my family (their intense beliefs in the Bible the only thing standing sometimes between themselves and happiness), in unhappy and sometimes physically abusive relationships.
cotd
26. cotd.
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 1:25 PM/EST
Because they are supposed to 'obey' their husbands, and divorce is one of the listed 'sins' in certain parts of the bible, that is, a man was allowed to divorce his wife, but a woman was not allowed to divorce her husband.
Now I realize you are coming from a "New Age" perspective of trying to embrace and respect all religions, but in doing so without the knowledge and understanding of what "Christianity" has done to those who did not want to follow it's beliefs, or those who were kept in chains because of what the Bible had to say about slavery, and now those who are punished for being Gay, because of what the Bible says about Homosexuality, you disrespect the people it has hurt by dismissing their pain.
Yes, the teachings of Jesus are full of understanding, forgiveness and love, but there is more to the Bible than that. And Christianity is based on a belief in The Bible, which is necessarily taken in full, and not in just the happy segments that portray Jesus' love and forgiveness for others. I myself love the teachings of Jesus, and I too feel we could all glean something useful from them with which to live our lives...but that does not mean I can erase all the bad that the church has done over the years, and all the bad it continues to do in terms of supporting a homophobic culture. Let's not forget the recent boycott of Disney by the church community because the Disney Corp. employed gay people. That JUST happened.
Bethanie
27. Bethanie
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 6:59 PM/EST
Everything you pointed out happened over a thousand years after Jesus. It is entirely blameworthy, but it is not part of the original message and would not characterize it over it's first thousand years.
I am not particularly a New Ager. I am a Baha'i and have spent considerable energy studying Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Taosim and looked more than passingly at Shintoism and some Native Faiths.
Race based oppression, the oppression of women by men, these are among the topics Baha'is have spent over a hundred years working on. I am a plain white guy. I wasn't brought up particularly involved about such issues nor is my formal education about such matters nor was anyone close to me particularly troubled by these topics.
But I am now involved.
Please note that the discussion about Christianity began with a comment about Christianity spreading among the slaves because of the masters. It has now spread to trying to understand the Cruscades, conquering the New World, and the pain Christianity has caused. I have repeatedly said i'm not "just" defending Christianity. I have also dwelt on some of Christianity's failings
In truth Bethanie i think we have more in common in our posts than differences. Please re-read my posts and stop hearing every other conversation about Christianty you have ever had.
28. on another thread
Sun, Sep 19, 1999 - 7:09 PM/EST
a post above said something like have you ever seen a gay bigot, suggesting that if you have suffered oppression you are less likely to cause it.
I seriously question this. If this were so then blacks themselves would not cause oppression because they have certainly suffered it. Even Cicily recognized racism among blacks - something i have seen preciously little of in many conversations with blacks.
29. Steven
Tue, Sep 21, 1999 - /EST
ethie'sgirl
While I agree that we should try to avoid generalizations, I would have to agree with the comment about the absence of gay bigots. Of course I accept that gay bigots can exist, and I certainly don't claim to know such an enormous number of gay people that I could make some sort of statistical, analytical guess, but the idea seems pretty on target to me. I agree with your point about blacks and oppression, however. I often wonder about that, and about why blacks and Jews are so often sniping at each other. It's completely crazy and truly frustrating. Then I remind myself that I am trying to make sense of something senseless, that prejudice exists outside of logic.
30. For Bethanie,
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 2:51 PM/EST
gwendolyn
I have been off line for a few days, our quarter is just getting underway and all of us in Student Affairs are quit busy. Santa Cruz is the bastion for feminist/lesbian ideals, but at the same time Santa Cruz is an ultra conservative that is still somewhat in the 60's. I move to SC to return to school, and this was the school I was accepted to. I am the first in my family to graduate high school and the first to attend college and graduate, so you could say I was a late re-entry student out to get an education and I did.
gwendolyn
31. For Steven and Bethanie,
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 2:56 PM/EST
gwendolyn
Steven you are all wet and have no idea what you are talking about and Bethanie thanks for the point well taken, my grandfather, and great grand father could not read well or read at the 2nd or 3rd grade level, but they could read the Bible.
gwendolyn
32. For donnalou1
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 3:05 PM/EST
gwendolyn
Your example just points out how deep racism has entrenched itself in our country. It makes me think there will never be any changes made, but being the optimist that I am I keep hoping that racism will just disappear like the fog. Thank you for sharing your story.
gwendolyn
33. For ethie'sgirl
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 3:10 PM/EST
gwendolyn
I agree with the avoiding the generalization trap, but you make a good point that prejudice and racism exists outside of logic. What is race anyway? Can anyone tell me?
Gwendolyn
34. I'm glad you're back Gwendolyn...
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 4:18 PM/EST
I've missed having you around to 'talk' to. What is race??? Do you want us to write a book or something? How many different perspectives can their be on this question. I've often thought of what would happen to us if we were all completely blind.--of course that isn't reality, but I think it's at least worth bringing up. There's a great story by Dr. Suess (sue me, I've got a toddler here, I occasionally quote Dr. Suess) anyway, it's called The Sneetches and kind of talks about what would happen if the boundaries between people were somehow blurred. It's an interesting, if somewhat idealistic perspective on life, but it really struck at something in me the first time I read it...I know i'm blabbering here, but just wanted to mention that.
Anyway, more than anything, I'm glad you've returned.
B
35. dancing in the rain....
Wed, Sep 22, 1999 - 11:18 PM/EST
just dancing in the rain after deleting numerous attempts at a response... just dancing, dancing in,
the rain.....
36. For bethanie
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 4:56 PM/EST
gwendolyn
My computer would not allow me to make a connection and I really felted that I was missing a lot and I did. So to better re-frame my question which should have been something like "How do we define race, what does race look like." The reason I am posing this is when I speak with Euro Americans, they refer to themselves as not belonging to a race, now with Black/African American (I belong to this group) we define ourselves using many term; Black, Afro American, African Americans and the list goes on. So I think we need to define the term and see where we go from there. I like the concept of all of us being blind, than no matter what we won't see the "color" of those who we try and interact with. I would like for the day to come where people I meet in the stores, or the security guards who follow me in Mall, who seem to think I am steeling, will just see me as a Black woman of African descent who is shopping. No stereotypes attached to being Black. The forever optimistic Gwendolyn
37. Amazing...
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 6:03 PM/EST
That I was just thinking on this very topic. What I'm wondering is how much of our 'eyesight' is effected by the barrage of media images that we are subjected to on a daily basis...We've kind of evolved into a very visual society, where the images we see everywhere really define the way we see other people. This, as you know, has really done a lot of harm to women in general. And also probably even more so to the Black male. When we see people, how much of what we see is based on what we've been spoonfed for ages?
Now, on to your question. No, I've never felt any particular identity in being White. That's why the uproar that has spread over Cicely is such a kind of shock to me. However, I'm not totally naive. In this country, amoung the black culture, there has always been streingth in numbers. That is, if you were by yourself, there was very often a much greater chance of you being caused some sort of physical harm. I think that's how the African American identity has developed into such a strong one. And you do see this on other races as well...a very strong cultural identity based on a safety in numbers point of view. One of my best friends is Mexican, and when I lived with her in Monterey for a year, I think it was the first time I saw the cultural difference in a big way. She missed the Mexican family she had had in Nebraska where she was from. I don't mean just her family, but her community as well. I have never felt this kind of cultural identity. I think partially because my father moved us around a lot when we were young, and we never put down 'roots' anywhere. But also just because it was never important for me to. In school, i never NEEDED to make alliances with other white children in order that the mistreatment would be more bearable.
I have more to say, so I will continue this...
38. cotd...
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 6:10 PM/EST
Then there was the segregation issue. With Blacks, I have a feeling this has a lot to do with the strong identity as well. Black people have historically been kind of forced into this sort of close communion with on another.
Growing up I always knew where the different segments of my family orriginated from.. Ican still quote those ancestorial roots, though they mean very little to me...Let's see...I'm French, German, Irish, Native American, Dutch and Austrian. What does that mean to the person that I am? Absolutely zilch. I mean, I am happy to know where I came from. But I have always identified myself as just me. I will be alive on the earth for a while, I'll do some things, and then I'll die. The things I do while I'm here are pretty important to me...that's what makes up most of my identity...my passions for living, my writing, my family...etc. My race? I don't care that much about it...but then, I have always had the luxury of not having to.
I suppose that's all I have to say on the subject. Can't wait to hear your feedback.
B
39. For bethanie
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 7:21 PM/EST
gwendolyn
I would say that the media effects all of our "eyesight". Look at who is on TV these days. No Blacks of African descent, Chicano/Latino, Asians or Native Americans are in prime time TV. People of color are seen in only one or two commercials and they, the commercials, involves cleaning something. When was the last time you saw a person of size on prime time TV? TV does reflect the real world, but TV effects the real world in a very big way.
I see no one on TV that looks like me, however when I happen to surf through some of those cop shows and the news, I see people who look like me being taken away in handcuffs or worse. So the barrage of media/images that America sees on a daily basis is what society sees when people who look like me or other people of color go out to the Malls or the movies. America's image of Blacks of African descent, they steel, lazy, have to many children, on welfare, drive a big car down the street playing "Rap" and the white women are not safe if we are out on the streets.
My girlfriend lives in Oakland, I've noticed when I leave Santa Cruz driving up to Oakland, I feel like a weight has been lifted off of my back. Reason: driving through San Jose to Oakland, there are lots of people who look like me and the city of Oakland has a large people of color population. My girlfriend lives in an ethnically mixed neighborhood of working people and its so nice to be back among people of color-I feel I am just one of the group, not the target that I sometimes feel living in this community. So I understand your friend missing her family, cultural and ethnic heritage. On my campus we have caucus groups and these groups are important for the cultural and ethnic connections they bring, but they are important source of support. There is a saying "power in numbers." I don't know how much longer I will live in this community, the city is calling me for what it can offer and I am looking at the various jobs that are available.
40. continued bethanie
Thu, Sep 23, 1999 - 7:25 PM/EST
gwendolyn
Privilege is such a simple word-but it packs a lot of meaning. Privilege means having a special advantaged. European Americans in America have had the "special advantage" of not caring because they have always had privilege. You mentioned that you "don't care much about your race." I am sorry you feel that way, for me it's the "root" of who I am. No one looking at me will say oh she's Gay, no they say she's Black. Being Black in this country has given me strength to be out, because there is nothing worse than being Black in America. Nothing! Please don't think I am bitter or angry, I am not, I am just stating what I have lived through for the last 56 years. I wish I knew where my ancestors come from, it would certainly help me understand the future. And that is what this dialogue is all about talking about the past so that we, you and I, can understand the future, so that our children will have a future.
Gwendolyn
41. Deep breath...
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 1:21 AM/EST
Your posts have kind of left me feeling out of breath. I've kind of been thinking over this whole topic of my own identity today. How much of it connects to my racial make-up. I just keep coming back to the same thing though. i have to be honest about this. I have always lived on the fringe of society. I have never felt particularly accepted, or part of any group. Even in my own family i have for a long time felt just somehow 'different.' Since I was VERY young. The first time I have felt any real acceptance has been in the past few years, in developing adult freindships with people since leaving the Army. Finding a kind of niche where I felt I could belong. That niche still sits on the outskirts of the 'masses.' But I'm happy here. For the first time I feel a real acceptance and people not always telling me how to live and who to love. Surprisingly I've found this partially at least in the Black community, with my husband and his family.
I don't know how I can explain this better. I feel i'm not quite making clear what I want to say, or how this relates to our discussion. But I've never felt particularly priveledged--I think invisible--that's how I grew up. Poor and invisible. But that's the thing. As a poor white American, that's all you are, just totally invisible. As a poor Black American--or really any Black American, you can never be invisible..not that you would want to be. Now I feel priveledged. Does that make sense? In having acceptance from my 'family'--and in finally finding a 'place' to be, I feel blessed. So I kind of get what you're saying about moving to the city. and I think it will be a wonderful experience for you.
B
42. To Bethanie and Gwendolyn...
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 10:45 AM/EST
Gosh, from reading your last 5-10 posting, you guys got deep into it and I just wanted to add my two cents if I may.
First of all, the whole race issue is a way to divide and conquer a people. When I say a people, I am referring those in power mantaining that power like South Africa's Aparteid. I is so easy to just single out someone who is different in skin color, religion or language and say this race is this and this race is that. We all should be proud of who we are and where we come from but be careful not to let that dominate where we are now. I am very proud of being part West Indian, British, African, White, Native American and God know what else, but when I walk into Sak's, I'm am your ordinary Black Male, whether I have on a $500.00 suit or a Red Cross T-shirt and some Gap jeans. That will never change in this world (sorry for rambling on).
Finally, regarding the issue Gwendolyn mentioned about not being represented in the media is right on the head, but that is definitely something that is not new. Many moons ago (from my Natve-American side any minority was only seen if seen as a servant or flunky. Yea things have changed a lot since then with all the new minority stardom, but until minorites are no longer considered minorities and have equal imput to what we see, read, and hear, then nothing will ever change.
43. .....part II
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 10:55 AM/EST
We all know anytime there is a shooting in the hood, the new crew always look for the brother with the gold tooth, broken english, ball-cap twisted to the side who just got out on parole, to describe in Ebonics what had happened. Here in Birmingham, we have a lot of positive things happening, but somehow we always make national headlines when something racial or back-woods happens, go figure. It is the same principle, to just show the world what "those" people are like and why "they" are different from "us".
Sorry to take the pulpit like this, but I just had a lot to say, and still do!
44. To bethanie
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 1:54 PM/EST
gwendolyn
You know this type of dialogue have been a wonderful experience for me and I hope for you as well. We are taking the first step--talking to each other and if we don't agree on some issue, its all right, because we are talking and that is what is important. I do understand where you are coming from about being on the fringe of society. As a Black woman, no I am not invisible most of the time. However, there have been times in life when I needed a service and I became invisible to the person waiting on me. I was new to the campus back in 1989, I wanted a little lunch and I also wanted to show my friend from LA the campus. We were in line to order with the clerk right in front of me, when she looked past me to my white male friend and ask if he was ready to order. My friend just lost it and told the clerk what he thought of her behavior-he said it was racist--she said she did not see me, although I was in front of her and I was and still am a full-figured, Black woman who you could not miss. So I do understand the being invisible, as I have also been invisible as well. Having privilege has its responsibilities as well as its benefits. As someone who has privilege you have a responsibility to talked to others who have the same privilege as yourself-change can happen if individuals take their responsibility seriously to be the change they want to see in the world. As part of my signature on my email I have a quote from Gandhi, "Be the change you want to see in the world." Individuals make change happen, not groups. Many of those individuals are in this dialogue process. See next post
gwendolyn
45. To Bethanie
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 2:01 PM/EST
gwendolyn
Continued
The film got us started and the dialogues help us get to know each other, but change will happen once these groups end. When we as individuals go back into our worlds and start interacting with others, each of us will think about the conversations we have had through this dialogue process. As we think about this process, we will find ways to address the ism's in our own communities and that will have "the ripple effect."
Gwendolyn
46. For Sebastian
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 2:23 PM/EST
gwendolyn
Sebastian, you are welcome to jump in any time, dialogue happens when small groups of people come together to discuss a topic or topics so that they can learn from each other. So Welcome!
You are right about the "until minorities are no longer considered minorities," part. This is something we minorities or people of color have to adopt for ourselves. When we (minorities) feel we are no longer a minority than change will happen. When we, as a major force in this country, demand to see and hear ourselves represented in the media,the images will change. Its all about money. Black/African Americans are seen as not have any $$ once they (the media) get it things will happen.
Gwendolyn
47. To Gwendolyn and Bethanie....
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 3:10 PM/EST
The last couple of days, I have been like a deer caught in the car head-lights reading what you guys have to say and I must admit, it has been wonderful. We all have different takes on probably everything, but what is healthy is communication and understanding, not being judgemental of anyone.
I agree that poor people of every race can be made to feel invisible at times, but like Gwendolyn said above, being black in America means being invisible everywhere. I can't count the number of times that truly feel I was overlooked or ignored simply because of my race. In graduate school, I worked part-time in the mall and seen it all the time and suddenly the rage and anger resurfaced. I channel that anger in to being overly friendly and extra nice and articulate just to let them know no one should be sized up with just one glance. Bethanie remind me so much of my ex-girlfriend, who is white, by being kind of a spy, who can watch, listen and try to make a different in step at a time, and all wars need double-spies!
48. For Gwendolyn
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 5:57 PM/EST
Okay, I forgot to bring this up last night...and it isn't on the subject exactly of what we're discussing right now. But this discussion with you has been very rewarding for me, and I like that we have listened to each other as much as talked...that said...
Now, I read you were fifty six. Is that right? When in your life did you realize you were gay? Was it early? Was it just recently? This is going to sound awful, and PLEASE do not take this as any kind of a remark on your age...one of my closest friends in the world is 52, and both my mother and mother in law are in their fifties. I thought about this last night after I read your post. What would happen if one of these women that I know and love had this kind of realization..I mean, I'm fairly positive it would be a big deal whenever it happened. I know it isn't something that just hits you over the head, but is rather something you may feel within yourself for a long time maybe before admitting it. But I'm wondering--totally leaving it up to you if you want to share this much of yourself. When did you realize you were gay, and how did your age play into that?
49. Gwendolyn and Sebastian...
Fri, Sep 24, 1999 - 6:11 PM/EST
You are both right. As you well know I'm sure. It's true, I may have grown up invisible, but at the same time, I never grew up with every move made scrutinized as possible criminal activity. In one of these message strands Ethie's girl talks about this more, about all the times she was stopped by police, made to produce her ID, followed home or looked at like she was a shoplifter when shopping. We especially talked about the detainment, as I mentioned to her that my husband has been detained at least once a year since I've known him, and that I worry he may one day just not come home. She asked how many times a white person in the same postition would have been stopped, and I answered that I've never been stopped, nor even given a second glance by the police. My husband and I have had this very same discussion, as every time he comes home after this kind of harrassment, I just have to look at him in disbelief. He is a well spoken, intelligent, educated good man--that's all I have ever known him to be. And yet, when someone else looks at him, they see black. And that is all they need to see. I know it happens, I know it's a fact of life for a lot of people. And you're right Gwendolyn in saying that we need ourselves to be a part of the impetous for change.
Bethanie
50. comfort zone unity
Sat, Sep 25, 1999 - 1:09 PM/EST
I'm sorry speaking about Christianity in the black community has been such a big problem between me and some others. Division and strife really weren't my goals. I much prefer truth.
I thought i tried to avoid saying Christianity was anything like perfect but others seem to feel the need to dwell on the issue. I thought i was trying to examine the question of whether Christianity came to the slaves because of or inspite of the masters. Certainly the masters used religion, and anything else they needed, to preserve their socio-eco reality and egotistic sense of power and wealth over others.
But my approach has been to avoid throwing out the baby with the bath water. I can't understand how it can be thought that slaves would adopt the religion of their owners because of them in any way. They were whipped into submission and came to beleive what they were told? Perhaps there is some of that - but how can that lead to an authentic religious experience? It isn't owed to God and can't lead there. Are we to say that the African American religious experience was/is a farce?
I think this partly avoids another isse. The idea seems to be that anti-gay pov only came from the Bible - not previous to the slaves, not authentic to the Africans. I seriously question that. I haven't seen any information, as opposed to the idea of slaves getting Christianity because of masters, that anti-gay pov existed in Africa before Christianity.
51. steven....
Sat, Sep 25, 1999 - 7:21 PM/EST
We have moved beyond this topic in our discussion of gay issues. There are some points that some of us are just going to disagree on, from our different experiences and our different information, etc. That's okay. Your experience with Christianity is way different than mine, or some other of the people on the bulletin board. I could write a novel probably on my negative experience with Christianity, and what it has done in my life and in the lives of some of my family. But I won't. I still believe there is a God. I still go to church on a fairly regular basis. I sometimes think that arguing about religion is a completely futile prospect. I think that respecting others beliefs is key and is sometimes much more important than trying to push home your own point of view. So I'd just say it's okay to agree to disagree sometimes.
B
52. invisibility
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - /EST
ethie'sgirl
While I was reading your earlier posts, I was thinking again of what I'd said about ways in which I've been harassed by police officers, shop keepers, etc. Then I had to smile when I read your paraphrase of my comments because I had just come to a new realization -- further proof, as if we needed any, of the illogic of prejudice. All those things I said about experiencing prejudice are true, but it is *just* as true that I am also invisible. People can see me well enough when they are checking to be sure I'm not going to rob the store, or when they want to know why I'm in a certain neighborhood. At the same time, however, people can walk right into me and seem completely shocked to find me there (this has happened *many* times). How is it possible to have it both ways? As I said in another post, I am pretty tall, and as Gwendolyn said earlier, I'm full-figured. I also walk around carrying a HUGE school bag and have twisty hair that is big and flamboyant. It seems fairly unlikely that anyone could miss seeing me. And yet somehow ...
And I wanted to thank you, Bethanie and Gwendolyn, for this great conversation. I haven't added much or often, but I've really enjoyed following along. You've given me a lot to think about.
Gwendolyn, you made a comment about change beginning when *this* conversation ends and we take this dialogue outside of this group. I agree, but I also think that's going to be SLOW going. I mentioned in another thread trying to start this conversation in a group of my friends and watching them squirm. This doesn't mean I won't keep trying, of course ...
53. Noticing how I 'see' people...
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 1:42 AM/EST
This conversation has also given me a lot to think about. I had an experience a few years ago, while working retail, with a middle aged white woman that reminded me of this thread about being 'invisible' I was ringing her up, or trying to anyway, at my register, when a younger man in a business suit walked up, completely ignoring her, and not seeing her at all. He just started talking to me like she wasn't even there. I stopped him mid sentence, told him I was already with a customer if he hadn't noticed, and went back to helping the woman I was ringing up. He apologized profusely swearing up and down that he hadn't 'seen' her and got in line. She leaned forward and whispered to me that it wasn't any big deal, that she had become invisible the day she stopped dying her hair. And sad too, because she was a very attractive woman with really nice grey hair. I know this isn't the same, but this conversation has really made me think about seeing people. About what it does to a person if they are continually invisible to society. I was out at the store today and just started looking at people (not like some weirdo lady or anything, and not staring) but just looking them in the eyes as they passed. It was an interesting experience to. Nearly everyone I 'saw' smiled back at me, or had some friendly greeting to give--and I live in the city. Now I'm not naive enough to think that this little expirament is going to make a big difference in the world, but it did make me think of the perceptions I sometimes harbor of people I don't know. That if you look a certain way, you are..
cotd...
54. cotd...
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 1:51 AM/EST
This brings up something else I've given a lot of thought to. After that nasty incedent last fourth of July where my husband was held by police for several hours. When he got home and finally was able to speak about what happened. The first words that flew out of my mouth were something like, "How could anyone think you are a criminal?" I talked about how eloquent he always is, how he dresses well etc. But I had to stop myself in mid sentence and re-think those words. What if he didn't? What if he didn't speak well..what if he walked around in baggy jeans or wore his hair different? Would that make him any more criminal than he is now? Would that make him any more deserving of being stopped by police? Last year fourth really had a huge impact on me in terms of how I 'look' at young black men.
B
55. I agree with Bethanie
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 4:31 AM/EST
dory
Well, I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one that has been affected in this was. I too have become more observant of people that I see in the store or whatever. I have also been looking at people as they pass by, and have been greeted with a smile or a hello. People seem to really appreciate this from a stranger. It would be nice if everyone could pay a little more attention to how they perceive others! That old saying, "can't tell a book by it's cover" is really true. Now more than ever. I have also found myself becoming more aware of how others may perceive me. And, I wonder what they may think....
I have not been contributing a lot to this forum, but I have been reading and following along. I take this message out into the "world" with me everyday as I meet and greet people. I want to be part of the change for the future. Hopefully, I will also be able to do that through my daughter as well as myself. Thanks to all of you for helping me to do that! :o)
56. majority rule
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 11:43 AM/EST
...even in minorities.
Lot's of words about warm exchanges, or agreeing to disagree. But understanding seems to have reached it's limit, even though i am pretty sure i wasn't understood. I actually went back and detailed the entire content of this discussion subject trying to figure out what happened. I learned some from doing this.
Fine - invisibility, and judging a book by its cover. Let's just keep on going....
57. Steven...
Sun, Sep 26, 1999 - 7:54 PM/EST
I'm really sorry you are feeling this way. I think you are misunderstanding that there is a difference between being heard and having someone agree with your opinion. You have brought up many fine points in this discussion, and I have tried to respond to all i have seen, but at the same time, I am not always going to agree with everyone, nor are you, as your post seems to indicate. I do think discussions can continue on a positive note despite a disagreement over the details of some of our understanding. In fact, this happens in my marriage on a fairly regular basis. Neither my husband and I pack up and leave simply because we disagree on something or other, we stay and work it out and sometimes agree that we just have different opinions on certain subjects. That's just the way of things.
B
58. For Bethanie
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 12:55 PM/EST
gwendolyn
I hope you had a great weekend. Your question regarding my sexuality. You know the Gay population is according to the last figures taken, is about 10% of the US population. However, I really disagree with that low number. There are many people who are Gay and closeted, there are many Gays who are only out of the closet on the weekends and there those of us who are just out.
I have been officially out for the last 3 years, unofficially I have been out for 20 years or more. What does unofficially mean, it means that I had feeling and even loved one or two women, but fought against it because of what our US society thinks about same sex relationships. I was also afraid of what my daughter would think of her mother. There comes a point (that point was 3 years ago) in ones life when living a lie is just not acceptable. I decided that this is who I am and if my daughter or others have a problem with my sexuality than they can choose not be part of my life. I will miss them, but it's their choice. I've tried various methods of meeting women, being 56 does limit my choices in this community, however, as I get out more into the larger cities, and there are more opportunities for meeting women. The Gay community is no different from the rest of society, if you read the ads in the newspaper or the internet, everyone wants someone who is young, white, thin, college educated, driving a $$$ price car, living in the right neighborhood and making big bucks. The Gay community is effected by the same media standards that the straight community is hit with on a daily basis. From my perspective women who have been in long term relationships with women and the relationship ends, have a harder time meeting, trusting and loving again. This is also true of straight women as well. I on the other hand have had few short term relationships. So I hope this answers your question and yes age is a major factor.
Gwendolyn
59. To Dory and Bethanie
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 1:25 PM/EST
gwendolyn
On being invisible, I find that in the small community that I live and work in, its hard being invisible. I hang out after work at one of many coffee shops in town, my favorite is one that has a wide window and when I sit in the window drinking my coffee, people will walk by look at me but they don't see me. I see them and could probably describe in great detail what they are wearing, but if pressed they could not describe one thing about me except that I am Black.
A short story, I was waiting for someone over in San Jose about a week ago, I sat down on a bench out of the sun, when this woman of color about my age sat down and I notice that she kept looking at me. Finally she said, after siting and eyeing me for about 10 minutes, "you are a beautiful woman what ethnic group do you belong to." I could not speak for about 30 seconds. No one has ever asked me that before. When I recovered, I thank her for her compliment and told her that I was Black of African descent. I thought everyone in America knows what Black people look like, but this was not the case with this woman. She was a recent immigrant, live and socialized in her community, she did not work. She wanted to find out more about me as a women and I really wanted to interact with her and we did for a little while, til my friend arrived and we had to leave, but I did thank her for the compliment and wish her a good day. It was so refreshing to interact with someone who didn't have these inaccurate images of me as a Black woman of African descent, she just wanted to know more about me.
Gwendolyn
Gwendolyn
60. agreement or understanding
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 5:17 PM/EST
I haven't looked for total agreement and am quite comfortable with the idea of diverse opinions. But there hasn't been any investigation of facts to speak of - just opinions one way or another. If there is actual information you or others can share on the issue i want to know it. I am quite willing to share what i know. But instead all i hear, and am sorry if i seemed to participate in, is slammed doors.
To make matters worse i see little difference between our actions and those who we all "know" to be oppressors of diversity, including name calling. Which brings us back to the "gay-bigot" thread.
In any case one more minority to worry about is the white guy who steps into the gap and tends to get it from both sides which i certain feel in here.
61. Gwendolyn...
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 9:41 PM/EST
I'm still just amazed that you only came fully out of the closet three years ago. I too think the real percentage of gay people in America is a lot higher than they set it at.
What I'm finding interesting right at the moment, is the diversity you will always find in cities. People from everywhere flocking to the cities because in doing so they escape the scrutiny they felt living in a small town. This is why I feel so comfortable living in Seattle. But in leaving all of the small towns, we are also taking the opportunity away from the people living in them to get used to change. Not that I have a problem with this obviously, I would never think of raising my daughter where I grew up. And not that it should be anyone's responsibility to educate people who are slow to change. That responsibility is way too big for one person, or one couple, or one family to handle. I know I still face a lot of issues that are closely tied to my small town bible belt mentality. Especially living here. But I continue trying to confront those feelings and steriotypes head on...
Bethanie
62. Steven...
Mon, Sep 27, 1999 - 9:50 PM/EST
I don't even know what to say here. So is the orriginal question you were asking is "did the anti-gay sentiment orriginate from the Bible? Or did it come over from Africa?" Is that the question? The Africa side of the question I cannot answer, but if you'd like me to, I will find all of the anti-gay segments in the Bible that I know and post them here. I thought that your study of the Christian religion would have already lead you to discover them on your own, but I am quite willing to share the info I have.
B
63. For bethanie
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 1:47 PM/EST
gwendolyn
It still amazes me that when I came out no one was really surprised at my sexuality. Being in the city does allow one to escape the scrutiny of the small town, but there are other advantages to living in the city, the events and numbers of individuals like me is really great to be around. Seattle is a beautiful city and I always enjoy visiting as I two good friends who live in Seattle. As I said in my previous post I am not sure how much longer I can live in my present community. Change is good and I feel at this point in my life, change can and would be very welcome.
Gwendolyn
64. Gwendolyn
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 6:33 PM/EST
dory
Hi! I have questions for you too. But, first a little background about me. I was married for 4 years to a Hispanic man. We separated after 2 when he decided to come out of the closet. At first, he thought that he was bi-sexual. But, then came to find through experimentation that he's gay. He was repeatedly molested as a young boy, from age 7-9. At the time he came out, he was working in a gay club, started having flash backs.
So, here's my question for you. Do you think that it's possible for a person to choose to be gay? (That's what I think my ex did.) I think that society can make people in his situation very confused in themselves... And, how do you know if you are gay or bisexual?
I realize, you're a woman and he is a man. So, it's much different. But, I was hoping you could shed some light on this for me. Might help me to loose some of the resentment I feel towards him!
Thanks!
65. did Christianity enter the slave population because of the Masters?
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 6:54 PM/EST
That the Bible has much to say against homosexuality isn't the issue at hand.
The subject line was the original question. Several people alleged that it did.
In post 13, gwendolyn said - I think a lot, of the homophobia, which comes from the Black/African American community, comes from our (slave past). All the slaves had, was the bible passed down to them from the slave master. Some could read however, most could not, so we have various interpretations coming out of the white man's bible.
(end quote)
In post 21, bethanie said, You have to acknowledge I think that the entire concept of Christianity was passed down from slave-owner to slave. Even if you do make the point that reading was outlawed. And when blacks finally were able to learn to read, what do you think they read?
(end quote)
There have also been many related comments scattered through posts. Everything from a clearly related, but seperate, issue of how masters used Christianity for their own purposes to far off issues like the Crusades.
66. Gwendolyn...
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 7:06 PM/EST
I couldn't agree with you more about the advantages of city life. Even during the rainy season here (what's that, nine out of twelve months? there's a reason everything's so dang green), there isn't a day that goes by I don't feel it was a good decision to come here. When I visit my Southern rural relations, I am completely appalled at the lack of 'culture.' I know small town life has it's own culture. But church, Mcdonald's and the Tupelo mall just never seemed like it would be enough for me. My husband and I both wanted to live in the city, and on the west coast, for the diversity and tolerance, and also for the cultural opportunities it presented. So I certainly don't blame you for wanting and planning to move. Are you making plans with your partner? How does she feel about you thoughts about moving, and about the community you are living in? I believe you mentioned she is white. Does she feel the same kind of 'conservatism' that you feel living in your community?
67. Steven - just start a new topic!
Tue, Sep 28, 1999 - 7:19 PM/EST
I have been trying to read the postings on gay/ biracial relationships etc. What is all this stuff about christianity originated from the slave masters? How did this thread get so off of the subject?
I am more interested in hearing Gwendolyn's response to dory.
I got into this thread rather late, so I have been trying to go back and read older postings. I haven't had much to say, but I find the topic very interesting and informative.
68. To dory
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 4:34 PM/EST
gwendolyn
I really don't know if I am qualified to answer your question. But I will do the best I can. In my opinion I do not think its possible for an individual to choose to be gay, any more than its possible for an individual to choose to be straight. You are what you are. I kept buried who I was (a woman who is interested in only women and who actively seeks them out) for many, many years. Although I was married for some 13 years my fantasies were about women and I would watch and interact with certain women. After my marriage ended I have a few brief affairs with one or two men but more with women. About 10-years ago, I knew that I was bisexual, no doubt in my mind. Three years ago I just stopped fooling myself and admitted that I like and love women. Since that time 3-years ago I have only dated women. Today I am in a relationship with a woman who I like, respect, adore and I hope in the future will love.
I did not choose to be gay, why would I do that to myself, as a Black woman, I have had my share of racism, why would I choose to add homophobia to the list.
I may be making a really broad assumption about your EX but I would bet $$ he has been wrestling with his sexual id for a very long time, and he could like many of us, no longer stay in the closet. You are going to have to make peace with him, because if you don't your resentment will manifest itself into other areas of your life or it may even hold you back from moving forward with your life. Being Gay is a term that refers to Gay men, Lesbian refers to women and means that as man/women you as bisexual means that you are open to either sex. I hope this helps.
Gwendolyn
69. To Bethanie
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 4:57 PM/EST
gwendolyn
I agree with you on the culture opportunities that are available in our cities. I find that more and more time that I spend in Oakland/San Francisco the more dissatisfied I am with my current community. For most cultural events I have to leave the area and travel to San Francisco, Oakland or beyong.
Partner--this is a new relationship so we as a partnership have not gotten their yet. The distance between Santa Cruz and Oakland is approximately 75 miles give or take a few. We alternate weekends in Santa Cruz/Oakland. We both are spiritually based and we attend each others church. She was just down for the weekend and we together attended my church, which she enjoyed and when I go up to Oakland, I always enjoy her church, so in a sense we are doing the two homes/churches/events thing in one of our communities. Yes my partner is white and I really can't speak for her on the conservatism that she may or may not feel in Santa Cruz, however if I feel it, she can't help but feel it. But when I see her this weekend, the topic will be on our discussion list.
Gwendolyn
70. more on invisibility
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 6:34 PM/EST
ethie'sgirl
One more comment about invisibility -- maybe this should be a new thread? I worry that I'm straying off the topic even further than my earlier posts may have ... In repsonse to something Bethanie said earlier about paying attention to the way she "sees" people, the same thing happened for me once I finally articulated for myself what was happening when people didn't seem to see me. Knowing how I feel when I'm rendered invisible has really made me try hard not to do the same to others. And I don't think the story about the grey-haired woman is irrelevant. In this society older people are often invisible. One more version of my invisibility is one I'm sure you've all heard of before: my difficulty hailing a cab. Sometimes I get lucky and get a car right away, usually, however, five or six or ten or twelve cabs go right by ... because they see "black person," not this particular person who is black, and they assume that a)I am a thug, b)they will have to take me to a "bad" neighborhood, c) I must be going to a predominantly black area ... which means they'll be way out of the center of the city and not be able to get a return fare or d)any combination or all of the above.
Anyway, I'll stop rambling now. I haven't had access to the internet for several days and so I think I've got a tendancy to go on and on!
71. Steven
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 6:47 PM/EST
ethie'sgirl
I have to say it's hard to respond to you because it seems that anything anyone says makes you feel more attacked. I don't really think anyone's been attacking you, so I'm sorry you're feeling that way. (Also, I have to say I had actually forgotten that you're white, so your comment about that took me a minute to figure out!)
Anyway, to *try* to respond in some small way ... I say again that Christianity *did* come to the slaves through their masters. Although some Africans may have had contact with missionaries (more on this in a second) before they were kidnapped and sent to the Americas, most didn't arrive in this country as Christians. They learned about Christianity from their slavers. Back at home, the word was being spread by the missionaries. Now, I want to believe that these people had good intentions at heart -- and I'm certain that many *did* -- but it's also true that oftentimes little or no respect was paid to the religions that were already in place. But whether the Christianity was brought by the missionaries or the masters, it was brought by white people, it didn't develop organically within the African or African American population. Yes, Christianity became an incredible unifier among black people, but what it became and where it came from are two different things.
I feel like we've been going over and going over and going over the same things. Clearly none can convince the others to suddenly change their views. Maybe we really do have to agree that this is one detail that we cannot agree on?
72. going around in circles
Wed, Sep 29, 1999 - 11:00 PM/EST
Then let's take this beyond what you or i think.
General intro: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/home.html
About the introduction to Christianity:
http://www.pbs.org/plweb-cgi/fastweb?getdoc+aia+aia+414+7+wAAA+christianity
http://www.pbs.org/plweb-cgi/fastweb?getdoc+aia+aia+819+4+wAAA+christianity
Personally the idea that one would pick up a belief system from the man with the whip is objectionable at a real gut level with me which is part of why i can't just let this go. I can't believe how casually you all will toss out such a thought.
How can you compare the life in the black church with brain washing and crushed spirits?
73. steven...
Thu, Sep 30, 1999 - 2:24 AM/EST
Okay, I have not wanted to respond to you in part because my knowledge on the subject of slave religion is somewhat limited. I have taken college courses in African American History, but these courses cover a broad ground and i have not been able to do much studying or reading up on this subject since you asked the question. And, since I suspect you want in-depth answers on historical issues that I simply do not have the answers to...However, I do believe I can give you something of an answer. The way religions develope is in itself a mystery. My sincere feeling (based on what i have read in the past, and my own experience with religion), is that no matter how a religion comes down to a people--in this case I do believe from master to slave, since the African's did bring along their own religions with them when they were brought here, if it does take hold, it develops somewhat of a life of it's own. This has happened with missions far and wide--including the ones that were based in this country, which often used Native American people as servants, and worked them to benefit the Mission land, which often had to support itself. You may think this is an off the wall example, but it does tie in with the faith issue, and the development of a new religion in a people. Even though there is evidence that many Native Americans were worked to death on mission lands, and burried under mission soil, the Christian/Catholic faith took hold in that community.
cotd
74. cotd...
Thu, Sep 30, 1999 - 2:25 AM/EST
My belief is there is a great appeal in the teachings of Jesus, which you yourself have stated. Native Americans left their own religions in droves to pursue the Christian faith. Though when they did, they brought with them bits and peices of their own religions and traditions, creating a sort of hibrid Catholicism. I think it is often the case that when people are broken of spirit, as the slaves in this country were during that period, they will turn to what gives them hope. There is a bit of brainwashing involved yes...but this is the case with most religions--I don't mean this in a negative way either, before you jump on me. I am just speaking of the promises that come along with Christianity in particular...the hard life on earth, which will bring to you a rich and wonderful heavenly life.--you mentioned something about this before, about the slaves looking to Christianity for hope..that is actually part of the truth. But it isn't the whole truth. I do think Christianity was also used by slavemasters to support a more peaceful, less rebellious atmosphere. Slaves were to obey their masters as is stated per Biblical instructions.
However Christianity took hold in the African American community, it is my thought that the end result was a hibrid Christianity--i mean a mixture of traditions from the old country which blended with the new religion. This Christianity was used to their advantage during the later years of slavery when the Underground Railroad began. Slaves used hymns to speak in code about escape routes and such. So many people develop faith in something that is of such benefit--and which gives them hope for a better future--no matter the original intentions of those who foisted the new religion on them in the first place. I could babble on forever here, but I am coming to the end of my knowledge on the subject, and fear anyway that I have already overstepped in some areas my realm of knowledge.
B
75. Gwendolyn...
Thu, Sep 30, 1999 - 2:52 AM/EST
What kind of church do you attend?
I know we have already had a topic dedicated to the choosing of a religion, but I'm wondering what your personal choice is and why.
I've kind of been looking for a church that feels like it fits me. Where attending doesn't feel like some kind of an obligation, but rather I have a desire to go there.
76. Ethie's girl...
Thu, Sep 30, 1999 - 2:53 AM/EST
I'm glad you got back to us! I've missed your comments.
77. To bethanie
Thu, Sep 30, 1999 - 11:46 AM/EST
gwendolyn
The church I attend in Santa Cruz is Inner Light Ministries, which is an independent church, but its base and philosophy are align with the Church of Religious Science. My minister teaches at the Church of Religious Science educational center in Santa Rosa. When I am in Oakland with my partner I attend her church which is the East Bay Church of Religious Science. When I first met her I had no idea that she even attended, but in our conversation we discovered one of many things that we had in common.
I grew up in the mid west going to both catholic and the Baptist churches as a kid. I have drop in and out of a lot of churches, because I could never find a church that I was totally accepted in or a church that I could be myself. There are a number of churches in Santa Cruz, I tried a few, but they just didn't work for me. Two lesbians that I know, were married a couple of years ago and performing the ceremony was the minister of Inner Light. She made a big impression on me and somehow I found myself alone last Christmas Eve, I went to the service and felt that I had finally found the place I could be me. I have not since I have been attending Religious Science church the obligation that I've felt in other churches, I go because I want to and feel comfortable. Because we are a small church, we only have church 2x a month, so when I miss church I feel like a big something is missing. '
Gwendolyn
78. To bethanie and steven
Thu, Sep 30, 1999 - 3:28 PM/EST
smoothtap
I understand where Steven is coming from and if I were looking for something to be mad at white people about I guess I could use that as an excuse. It’s not who gave you the knowledge its what you do with it. If you don't find truth in it then you find something else. I have always believed that those who seek true spirituality will find the right place because some higher power will lead them there. Most people will go where they feel the most comfortable. Freedom of religion is one of the good things going in America. There are so many to choose from, if you don’t like one religion then you go to another. In Ireland they kill each other over religious backgrounds. What I’m trying to say is that we need to spend the energy finding truth in what we believe and I think that will lead us in the right direction.
79. to bethanie and smoothtap
Thu, Sep 30, 1999 - 6:32 PM/EST
btw i find such subject lines disturbing - allot of other people are reading these posts and it always seemed to me such lines imply only those people should read them
but anyway.
Betahnie - i disagree with very little you said. Except "I do think Christianity was also used by slavemasters to support a more peaceful, less rebellious atmosphere. Slaves were to obey their masters as is stated per Biblical instructions."
While that may have happened i think it is far from the norm. Check the references i offered above. It speaks of black ministers impacting the lives of thousands of slaves; beatings and whippings and laws passed by slave owners against Christianity being taught to slaves.
Smoothtap - i see what you are saying as well. I can appreciate comments like the above and before about Christianity coming to the slave population because of the masters from a very distant perspective. Africans largly weren't Christian before becoming slaves in America and did so after. Either they would come by the knowledge out of the blue or it came by the whites present (as the Native Americans weren't Christian either at the time.) Therefore it came through the white people.
(cont)
80. (cont)
Thu, Sep 30, 1999 - 6:33 PM/EST
However i think that is a dangerous understanding. It means that oppressors do actually control the way the oppressed think. I think human history has pretty much gotten rid of that pov. Otherwise the Jews in death camps would come out wanting to build death camps for example. I know there is such a thing as internalized racism where you have these nagging negative self-images. But that is very different from beleiving that pattent lie that comes from saying we're doing this out of love (the primary and unavoidable message of Christianity however clouded) and the beatings and brutality of slavery. The lie defeats the message. Therefor from my pov Christinaity as an authentic personal and social experience could not have come from the masters but inspite of the masters.
From the citations above i read of a few masters who taught slaves Christianity and freeded them. A few masters who used the Bible as a rationale to explain or defend their actions towards their slaves.
However the host of the masters simply acted against the spread of Christianity, or so i think. Instead it had to spread sideways through the community much much more than the few white people who taught the few first blacks about Christianity.
81. religion were it belongs
Thu, Sep 30, 1999 - 10:08 PM/EST
smoothtap
Let's continue this in the . "How does your geographical location effect racial/religious/cultural issues that you face" post.
82. Gwendolyn...
Fri, Oct 1, 1999 - 2:46 AM/EST
Thanks, you've found exactly what i've been looking for in a church community..a place where I can walk in and feel I'm in exactly the right place. Haven't found that yet, still looking.
I would like to share my e-mail address with you, as I have found your voice in these discussions one of reason and understanding. And I think you're just a great person. johnson_bethanie@hotmail.com
B
B
83. For bethanie
Fri, Oct 1, 1999 - 3:12 PM/EST
gwendolyn
Thank you and I feel the same about you. My email address is
gwenny@cats.ucsc.edu
84. farewell to all
Fri, Oct 1, 1999 - 9:42 PM/EST
I appreciate much of what was said in all the threads. My thanks to all of you.
I wish each of us a freedom of spirit, a purity of heart, and chastity of soul. The first let's us consider things we have never thought. The second keeps us intouch with ourselves and our best. The third holds what is important close to us.
May any blindness of our assumptions become reasons for our education.
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